Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble • Hacker News Board

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#191

Post by vacri » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:27 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #162

vacri wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Main points, like talking about all 1.3B people as if they are of the one mind? 1.3B brainwashed chinese, unlike the 300M free-thinking americans, none of whom buy into any sort of blind nationalism, amirite? Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these people actually taking physical action? I mean, 'extreme nationalism' is su…

> 1.3B brainwashed chinese, unlike the 300M free-thinking americans, none of whom buy into any sort of blind nationalism, amirite? Textbook whataboutism. The US isn't jailing people who talk about government missteps. China does jail people who talk about what happened in 1987. > Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these peo…

> Textbook whataboutism.

Nope. I was ridiculing the idea of categorising an entire nation as all being of the one mind.

You need better textbooks.

> The most patriotic thing is to believe your country's form of government is better than others, or at least as good as others.

Nonsense. There are plenty of rabid American patriots who despise their government and want to change it, for example. And there are plenty of people who believe their government is the best form, but aren't particularly patriotic.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#192

Post by thr312423 » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:28 AM UTC

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Looks like this is the state of affairs in every "capitalist" state on the planet. Singapore, check. China, check. Japan, check. US, check. Corporate oligarchies will stomp on our faces for eternity, it'd seem.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#193

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:33 AM UTC

contingencies wrote: post #135

I just crossed back to Shenzhen from Hong Kong yesterday. A few random observations... In HK, a lot of the taxi drivers are old guys who can barely read, don't speak English or mandarin, and are a real hassle to deal with unless you are a Cantonese speaker. A lot of the taxis have weird fare manipulation lookup tables instead of correct metering. Although the mass-transit oriented stored value card, Octopus, was esta…

I don't know why it's so shocking that the taxi drivers should not be masters in speaking foreign languages. I would find it odder if they were all well educated and fluent in three languages.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#194

Post by arniewatch » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:35 AM UTC

princetontiger wrote: post #171

d_burfoot wrote: post #161

Before pontificating too much about the doom of Hong Kong, you should observe that compared to the US, HK has: - Far lower crime and incarceration - Better education (measured by PISA scores) - Incomparably better infrastructure (compare beautiful, clean HK subways with laughably pathetic US ones) - Better health outcomes than the US, 84 year life expectancy vs 79 for the US - Preserves an incredibly large percentage…

.... built by the British, not the Chinese. The British gave the local Chinese a first world place. Again, HK and Singapore were both built by British folks. Look it up. Had the British colonized more places, it would be even safer. Malaysia is still defended by Aussies and Brits to this day!

The British did colonize more places. Places like Malaysia, India, etc., that aren't as prosperous and developed as Hong Kong and Singapore. Much of Britain itself isn't as prosperous and developed as Hong Kong and Singapore. Obviously it wasn't a case of the British simply building HK and Singapore. Singapore wasn't a very prosperous and developed place when the British left in the early 60s. It became so subsequently under local elites like Lee Kuan Yew. Hong Kong and Singapore were built by its locals, who were mostly Chinese but also included Indians, Malays, and others.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#195

Post by vacri » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #187

Retra wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The most patriotic thing is to believe your country's form of government is better than others, or at least as good as others. No, that'd potentially be a delusion of patriotism. Or nationalism. Patriotic would be to make your countries government better than others. Not merely believing it is.

> No, that'd potentially be a delusion of patriotism. Or nationalism. Patriotic would be to make your countries government better than others. Not merely believing it is. I agree. The original argument of this thread was that without free press, doing things like making your country's government better is difficult, if not impossible. Therefore, it seems contradictory to be patriotic in a system that does not permit…

The US has a free press. The current president is a governmental incompetant, and is using the office to enrich his family. The latest story is that even the major personalities in his own party are telling him publicly to shape up, admonishing him like a naughty schoolboy.

What will actually change in government to prevent Trump 2.0? How will it be improved? That's the saddest thing about this whole debacle, is that nothing will be changed to get rid of a bad president. No mechanisms will be added. Everyone will breathe a sigh of relief when Trump leaves (in whatever way) and then pinky-swear that "we'll never do that again" without changing the mechanisms to actually make it so.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#196

Post by dis-sys » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:42 AM UTC

Umofomia wrote: post #134

j9461701 wrote: post #21

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

> I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do Note that it's not because the British never tried to introduce democracy. In fact they were heavily dissuaded from doing so because of ... surprise ... China. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-... Declassified documents from long before handover…

you mean 114 years after the Opium War? that was a pretty long wait.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#197

Post by dis-sys » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:49 AM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #138

Umofomia wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do Note that it's not because the British never tried to introduce democracy. In fact they were heavily dissuaded from doing so because of ... surprise ... China. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-... Declassified documents from long before handover…

Yep, and while there was never universal suffrage, most other civil liberties and the rule of law were upheld, by and large, under British administration. And that is giving way, slice by slice, to Chinese "guanxi" (i.e., "connections", "who do you know") and authoritarian politics. :-/

This is funny given the fact that in HK what school you go to largely depends on how much money your parents have (buy bonds issued by schools) and what is their occupation.

This is strictly prohibited in mainland China - a private school recently asked education level of parents on one of its admin forms, that became national news and that school got punished in days. Selling school bonds to effectively bar average families to access equal educational rights would be criminal offence.

If you like, we can continue one public healthcare - whether the residence of Shanghai has better access to public hospital or those in HK? Requiring people to wait months or even years to have surgery in public hospital would probably causing an uprising in China, but apparently that is okay in HK as the rich how makes the law can always go to private hospital.

Your definition of "rule of law" is quite different, that is all.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#198

Post by unityByFreedom » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:55 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #195

unityByFreedom wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that'd potentially be a delusion of patriotism. Or nationalism. Patriotic would be to make your countries government better than others. Not merely believing it is. I agree. The original argument of this thread was that without free press, doing things like making your country's government better is difficult, if not impossible. Therefore, it seems contradictory to be patriotic in a system that does not permit…

The US has a free press. The current president is a governmental incompetant, and is using the office to enrich his family. The latest story is that even the major personalities in his own party are telling him publicly to shape up, admonishing him like a naughty schoolboy. What will actually change in government to prevent Trump 2.0? How will it be improved? That's the saddest thing about this whole debacle, is that…

Trump is more constrained in the US than he would be as a leader elsewhere.

There are a number of active lawsuits against him, most important probably being the emoluments ones. These take time to prepare and put in front of a judge.

I don't know what better solution there is to wannabe dictators than a free press. Trump hates the press that doesn't agree with him. That should be a big sign that they are a thorn in his side.

Life isn't perfect, nor is government. Sometimes you get a lemon and just need to deal with it with as much reason as you can muster.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#199

Post by dis-sys » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:57 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #123

laretluval wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. Seems like democracy would make this problem worse, since it redistributes power to local informal power elites.

Taiwan is a "democracy", just a deeply corrupt one.

Calling Taiwan a democracy is like labelling the Culture Revolution a democratic movement.

When elderly Chinese who actually experienced the terrible Culture Revolution go to visit Taiwan, many of them had the feeling that Taiwan make them feel young again as they saw the Culture Revolution again in Taiwan.

Endless street politics for every single change to the society, hugely divided society, corruption from both sides, people are forced to pick which side is less terrible rather than which is better, President democratically elected used its official jet to move cash to foreign countries.

Personally, I don't want such toxic Taiwan to be integrated back to China, they can run their own circus on that island so people in the mainland can look at them and learn from their mistakes.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#200

Post by dis-sys » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 4:59 AM UTC

bufordsharkley wrote: post #147

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

A HK resident recommended to me Alice Poon's "Land and the Ruling Class in Hong Kong" to understand the malfunction in land development that this sort of cronyism delivers; I found it a worthwhile read, and readily recommend it to others. [0] http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2948872-land-and-the-ruli...

sadly, the exact system was introduced into China before the handover, the broken system is not just screwing HK but a huge chunk of China including all major cities.