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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

131–140 of 323 posts

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#131

This article takes an economic situation and tries to frame it as a political one. Hong Kongers don't care about the ideological differences between mainland China and HK, they care about the staggering inequality and loss of economic mobility in their once vibrant city. Chinese money is flooding into Hong Kong and it's all being parked into real estate. This has sent real estate prices skyrocketing and far outside t…

> Hong Kongers don't care about the ideological differences between mainland China and HK,

Pretty sure some do. See the umbrella movement.

> This article takes an economic situation and tries to frame it as a political one

Seems short sighted to say politics and economy are unrelated. Politicians make laws that impact businesses.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#132
post #71

The real problem is that Hong Kong is a finance and trading hub. And it became so because it was the easiest way to do business with China. But business likes stability. The democracy protests have done nothing for Hong Kong, and now that China's eased access to their market through Shanghai, Hong Kong's entire raison d'être is at risk. Also, the article is pretty spot on in other ways. Once upon a time, Hong Kong st…

The real problem is that Hong Kong existed as an arbitrage hub to an artificially closed hinterland during a political time warp, and when China finally opened up, Hong Kong's fate was already sealed. Hong Kong still has some first-world advantages to exploit, but the number is dwindling day by day.

> Hong Kong still has some first-world advantages to exploit, but the number is dwindling day by day.

Beijing/Shanghai have yet to demonstrate the level of innovation that comes out of the Hong Kong/Shenzhen connection.

And, parents still send their kids across the border in mainland China to go to school in Hong Kong.

China may have opened up, and is continuing to open up more, but by no means are the gates fully open at Shanghai. Innovation still primarily comes from the south and regions that are farther from the federal government's base.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#133

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

It goes both ways, though - the tacit deal is basically that the HK tycoons do not challenge the Chinese Communist Party's monopoly on power, and the CCP doesn't challenge the HK tycoons' economic monopolies.

But, all in all, I agree. As I've written in another thread: The grievances of HK's population are real: a political and business establishment dominated by property tycoons (and increasingly mainland Chinese political factions) keen on maintaining their privileged position; huge economic inequality; a slow erosion of political liberties ("salami tactic").

That all, of course, gave rise to the Umbrella Movement in 2014.

However, given that the Chinese Communist Party is not inclined to weaken its grip on power, and extremely protective of the (perceived) territorial integrity of China, I don't really see how this will end well. :-/ Here's hoping.

For perspective, BTW: In 1997, HK's GDP was about one sixth of China's (even though China has 200x the people), and HK was an important conduit between China and the world: HK's port had more volume than Shanghai and Shenzhen together.

Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478975/Shanghai-por.... )

HK used to be hugely important for China. Now, it isn't, and with rising Chinese nationalism, HK is being seen more and more like an unruly and spoiled child.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#134

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

> I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do

Note that it's not because the British never tried to introduce democracy. In fact they were heavily dissuaded from doing so because of ... surprise ... China. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-...

  Declassified documents from long before handover
  negotiations even began show that some British officials
  did seek to introduce more democracy in Hong Kong but were
  angrily rebuffed by Beijing.
  
  Allowing Hong Kong people to govern themselves would be a
  "very unfriendly act," premier Zhou Enlai reportedly told
  British officials in 1958. Another Chinese official in 1960
  threatened potential invasion if the UK attempted to
  introduce greater democracy to the colony.
More details here too: https://qz.com/279013/the-secret-history-of-hong-kongs-still...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#135
I just crossed back to Shenzhen from Hong Kong yesterday. A few random observations...

In HK, a lot of the taxi drivers are old guys who can barely read, don't speak English or mandarin, and are a real hassle to deal with unless you are a Cantonese speaker. A lot of the taxis have weird fare manipulation lookup tables instead of correct metering. Although the mass-transit oriented stored value card, Octopus, was established decades ago, you still can't use it in taxis. Further, if you want to top it up, you literally can't top it up with anything smaller than HKD50 (USD$9) even if your fare costs less and you only have small denomination local money. There are no electric taxis, but plenty of rich people own Teslas. If you ask 20 odd Hong Kong banks about cross-border RMB payment APIs (HK is supposed to be a financial center, after all) not a single bank can offer you one. In fact, just to open a regular bank account is now so difficult standard waits can exceed 2-3 months (and success is far from guaranteed).

So what does HK still have to offer?

(1) A legal environment under Beijing's auspices but with nominal resistance to mainland corruption and manipulation.

(2) Superior international financial connectivity and services if you can get a bank account.

(3) Liberal visa-free travel policies for people from most countries.

That's about it.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#136
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is happening to Taiwan (stuttered growth; in-fighting, etc.). The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. The riches have already allocated some of their wealth elsewhere (see Canada and Australia), so they don't really care. It's always easy to blame it on Beijing, isn't it?

> The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. Seems like democracy would make this problem worse, since it redistributes power to local informal power elites.

Disagree. In a functioning democracy, you have less entrenchment of power elites.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No point in talking about China from the lens of traditional communism. China is an authoritarian capitalist country, 'capitalism with Asian values' as is said with Singapore arguably the architect, so being upset about Chinese communists being invited into the country because they are communist is kind of absurd. Not wanting them in the country because they support an oppressive, racist government with more state ex…

Your points are all pretty much valid. However, you're getting hung up on terms that misses the point. My use of 'officially communist' was to imply the fact that it's more of a authoritarian regime. I also find it funny how so many are getting hung up on the same use of the term. You're missing the forest for the trees. Anyone with half a brain knows that its not the theoretical communism.

Yes, I think comments like the above are intentionally trying to divert attention from your main points.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#138

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

> I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do Note that it's not because the British never tried to introduce democracy. In fact they were heavily dissuaded from doing so because of ... surprise ... China. Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/18/asia/hong-kong-handover-china-... Declassified documents from long before handover…

Yep, and while there was never universal suffrage, most other civil liberties and the rule of law were upheld, by and large, under British administration.

And that is giving way, slice by slice, to Chinese "guanxi" (i.e., "connections", "who do you know") and authoritarian politics. :-/

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#139

This article takes an economic situation and tries to frame it as a political one. Hong Kongers don't care about the ideological differences between mainland China and HK, they care about the staggering inequality and loss of economic mobility in their once vibrant city. Chinese money is flooding into Hong Kong and it's all being parked into real estate. This has sent real estate prices skyrocketing and far outside t…

> Real estate is the best investment available in Hong Kong right now. Bar none.

Whether it still is now (prices having doubled since the 2007 bottom) is questionable, and depends hugely on political decisions.

> With all their capital tied up in real estate, the elites don't invest in startups or R&D.

Fully agreed. Not only that, it makes starting a small business extremely expensive.

> It's not a backlash towards conflicting political ideology, they just want the Chinese and their damn money out.

I'd argue the umbrella movement was borne of four related grievances:

* the enormous inequality (coupled with low social mobility)

* the extreme cost of getting your own flat (young workers live with their family for a long time, and have to save money for long time before they can put down a downpayment for a tiny apartment (they come in different sizes: shoebox, matchbox, coffin...))

* the gradual erosion of civil liberties

* and, yes, the desire for more political self-determination, e.g. universal suffrage or even independence.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#140

Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing up for Hong only lightly. Will they ever carry a bigger stick?[1] -What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? -Would the former colonies in Africa and Asia be in better hands if they were st…

> -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good?

China is extremely protective of its territorial integrity. So, China, for starters.

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