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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

101–110 of 323 posts

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#101

I agree completely. In European/Anglo countries, the ruling elite give back. Check out Grand Central, Rockefeller Center, the large parks and gardens throughout the great countries of the world. The ruling elite in Asia don't care about others.

non-sequitur

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#102

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

Wouldn't China's rule be more chaotic evil?

that's a contradiction in terms, because rules don't exist in chaos, so neither does rule.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. 1.7 million (20%) Israeli citizens are Israeli Arabs, many of whom are close relatives of people in the West Bank.

But that's exactly the point. There's a huge difference between the Israeli Arab citizens and the Israeli Arabs who are non-citizens. People might talk about some of the issues faced by Israeli Arab citizens, but when they talk about the problem with the Palestinians they're specifically talking about the ones who are non-citizens. The Arabs who have citizenship are in a completely different situation, just like the…

I guess I don't understand. Hong Kong residents are not really functional Chinese citizens[1] (as I understand it) just like Palestinians are not functional Israeli citizens. Obviously the situations are not identical, but it does seem similar to me.

Hong Kong residents need a permit to enter/work in China just like West Bank residents need a permit to enter/work in Israel (and something like 50k-100k Palestinian citizens (non-Israelis) have permits to work in Israel).

[1]https://www.quora.com/Do-people-in-Hong-Kong-and-Macau-have-...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#104
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as We…

You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was…

Until recently you could cross the border without a passport. It was pretty carefree. Why should'nt it be?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer, from mainland China, knows people live in US from Hong Kong. > There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens Brain-wash is a strong word. Chines people are not like some another-dimensional like minions. They think and behave reasonably and just like any other one on this planet. Please refrain from using strong word without actual evidence. > taiwan is a part of china History shows that Taiwan was forcefully…

You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area. Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to…

"On June 4 1989, absolutely nothing happened here" :)

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to doubt you - but, what's your source? (You sound correct, but I don't know how to verify what you're saying).

Have a look at Wikipedia - especially 1991 (and before) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_... where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks ..... but none elected at large by the populace even today only half the council is elected at large

> where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks

The City of London gives companies votes [1]. And until 1948, college graduates in the United Kingdom voted twice [2].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation#V...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representation_of_the_People...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#107

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Very interesting. It touches on something I've been thinking about lately. The book Why Nations Fail [1][2] makes an argument very similar to yours that there are two factors that determine (economic) success of a nation: 1) inclusive economic systems and 2) inclusive political systems. They argue that these can form a virtuous cycle where they enhance themselves. However, if nations don't have inclusive systems, they tend to form a vicious cycle.

They give the example of Venice which had (for the time) relatively inclusive systems, allowing a a middle class to rise and generate wealth for the city. This new elite started to limit political inclusiveness to protect their wealth. This tipped the scale back to extractive systems. By the 1500s Venice was in decline.

This example makes me wonder if we're headed that way. In Hong Kong -- but also e.g. in the US -- it seems there's a class of mega rich that are moving more and more into rent seeking behavior and greater income inequality. If the book's theory is right this will lead to political systems to become less inclusive over time, which will eventually lead to economic decline.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail [2] http://www.economist.com/node/21549911

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#108
post #87
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was…

Where did you cross that someone pointed a gun at you?

>where I was held by someone >carrying a gun

Who said anything about someone pointing a gun?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#109
post #87
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was…

Where did you cross that someone pointed a gun at you?

[deleted]

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#110
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you agree that the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions in society to redress these imbalances, or do you think, even with universal suffrage, the citizens of Hong Kong are too fractured to come up with solutions? (Similar to the current political climate in the US.)

> the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions to redress these imbalances I agree all of it until "to redress these imbalances", i.e. letting the local elite rule Hong Kong was a deliberate decision by Beijing. Back then (before/during the hand-over to China), nobody knew how it's gonna work. And as of now, that decision turned out to be a fai…

> wait, I'm starting to have a deja-vu...

The last sentence from 'Animal Farm'?

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