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Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

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Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#251

Post by FLUX-YOU »

contravariant wrote: post #108
protonfish wrote: post #22

I did not expect to see so much contention about this. A company is paying him to do a job, and he is doing that job. Is the problem that he isn't miserable? This baffles me.

Well, the question was whether it was unethical, and the ethics to me seem pretty clear. He is lying to the company about what he's doing and when he's doing it. He also had an agreement with the company to work 40 hours for wages, which he has clearly broken. Neither of those things are ethical in any way shape or form. However resolving this in a just way is now extremely difficult (this is mostly his own fault but…

>SO post: The system is really old - and although I was hired as a programmer, my job is pretty much glorified data entry

To me, this is justification to not tell them about it. Programmers are almost always distinct jobs from data entry. That he is only being given this task is harmful to his career as a programmer. Take any discussion about interviewing or careers from here, and all of the discussion about bad programmers repeating 1 year of work over 10 years, and it's pretty obvious this is a weak position to grow in.

Imagine this programmer was applying to a company from here, telling them his only task he was ever given was spreadsheet data entry. And he automated it. It's good, but not when it's the only thing you've done.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#252

Post by crispyambulance »

ceejayoz wrote: post #64
crispyambulance wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of the deliberate errors is to avoid (or delay) having the discussion about the automation. He is not "on the hook" for fraud unless he acts like he's in a sit-com and blurts out that this has been going on for 6-months. He could just say: "...hey, I've been working on automating this task, I think I got it working now."

If you're "not 'on the hook' for fraud" only because you haven't shared material facts ("this has been going on for 6-months"), you're committing fraud .

He has NO REQUIREMENT to volunteer so-called "material facts" unless he's in a courtroom.

They hired him to do a job. He's doing the job. But because of a lack of trust, he isn't telling them that a little devil in the form of a VBA macro is helping him immensely.

The more I think about it the more I align with the OP clamming up and enjoying the ride until he finds something better-- or perhaps until he develops enough trust to be able to reveal the automation.

The biggest hazard, aside from loose-lips, is that the company could hire a 22-year-old business analyst who might quickly report back that Excel can do a few more things than they thought. Then the 22-year-old will look like a genius and the OP will look like a blockhead.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#253

Post by dkersten »

rubidium wrote: post #234
empath75 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I spend half my day browsing Reddit on salary, but my work gets done and no one has ever said anything to me about it. And if they did, I'd probably just quit and get a job for a sane company.

I wouldn't say I thing about your browsing, but I would give you more work :)

Why should the person who more efficiently does their work be punished with more work when others can do less and still get paid the same?

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#254

Post by taneq »

austenallred wrote: post #144
imh wrote: post #21

This question is a beautiful example of typical incentives workers feel and how screwed up they are. On HN people talk often enough about how if you have a worker who gets their job done in 30 hours instead of the company's usual 40-60 hours, you should give them 30-100% more responsibility, but much more rarely "and 30-100% more pay." Butt-in-the-chair hours are super important culturally and it's been that way for…

It seems the greater question is, "What is the employer paying for?" Economic theory suggests an employer pays for value created. After all, if an employee is generating less economic value than they're consuming, it makes sense to fire that person. But that's only true in a fantasy world where you can perfectly measure and compensate that kind of performance, like performing physics equations without air resistance…

I do freelance development and I've found myself working in a loose collective of similar freelancers and small businesses. If one of us needs something from the others, it's done on a price-per-result basis rather than hours. This is working well for me, because it means I can quote based not only on my cost to supply, but also on the value I'm creating, and I can spend whatever time I feel is required to then create that value.

I've also come to the conclusion that (for me, at least) being paid per hour is hugely detrimental to my performance and my enjoyment of my work.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#255

Post by WalterBright »

danielharrison wrote: post #206
WalterBright wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because presumably it bruised their pride. Even though it was strongly in their interests. We all do that. For example, I'll hold onto a bad investment because selling it means admitting I screwed up. It's a tendency we all have to fight.

Not everyone has this bias. I think it comes down to how logically or emotionally driven the individual is.

> Not everyone has this bias.

Are you sure about that? As research in "Thinking Fast and Slow" by Kahneman shows, people exhibit the usual cognitive biases even while adamantly asserting they do not.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#256

Post by true_religion »

williamscales wrote: post #139
icebraining wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What law would he be breaking?

Probably either fraud or breach of contract if it came to a court

Depends on if the errors are material to the value produced. Like let's say I produce a report in an automatic way but have all the page number misaligned and occasionally insert incorrect punctuation then that does reduce the value of the report.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#257

Post by naasking »

wfunction wrote: post #250
naasking wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of world do you live in where intentions and honesty don't matter, and only "effects" do? Probably the business world. If we momentarily put aside the intentional insertion of mistakes which takes the ethical considerations to a whole new level, we're still left with an interesting ethical question of whether automation of your own job requires you to inform your employer of how you're doing your job. Tha…

> If we momentarily put aside the intentional insertion of mistakes which takes the ethical considerations to a whole new level, we're still left with an interesting ethical question of whether automation of your own job requires you to inform your employer of how you're doing your job. That answer isn't so clear to me. You're hired to do a job, and you're doing it to the best of your ability. Do you consider that un…

I imagine you're familiar with reasoned argument, similar to programming, where one starts with some generally agreed premises upon which one can build to ever more sophisticated conclusions. So again, do you have an opinion on the specific question I asked?

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#258

Post by photojosh »

mmastrac wrote: post #132
rljy wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adam Smith began his wealth of nations with a description of the division of labor and an essay on how this division leads to an increase in productivity. Specifically, he gives the example of a worker who's sole job it is to make pins, and who devises a way to make them by machine, while previously, each pin was hammered out by hand over a matter of minutes, the new machine makes them in seconds. This division of la…

Piecework (and Mechnical Turk!) probably makes more sense in an environment with Basic Income. That gives the employee a chance to decide if the effort is worth the $/piece without compromising on their health and welfare.

Yep. Basic income means we can do away with minimum wage. Now let's see how much poorly-regarded jobs (like janitorial) end up paying when the free market really does decide.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#259

Post by mythrwy »

Is don't believe this is an "ethics" problem. No reason for existential angst.

This is a practical problem. What do you want from the company long term? How do you want to spend your days?

Consider the longer term. What happens if they find out you automated something and didn't tell but rather milked it? Do you even care about what their reaction might be? Is this company at all important in your future? (there aren't "right" and "wrong" answers to this, depends on what your goals are).

How do you see this ending? How can you make maximum advantage out of the situation while preserving what you want out of the company (including possibly continued employment).

As far as I'm aware Moses didn't say anything about these types of situations so you are on your own. But don't be a short term thinker.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#260

Post by the_cat_kittles »

bjourne wrote: post #196

What's wrong with us workers? Do you think the Apple executes have some secret message board where they ask questions like: "Is it unethical for us to sell iPhones for $800 when they only cost $20 to produce?" Capitalism is what it is, you play the game and shouldn't feel bad the (few!) times you win.

disagree. its better to consider the ethical implications, and adjust your behavior accordingly. just because other people are ok making money unethically doesn't mean you should give yourself a pass. i get that there is an asymmetry between some companies and their employees though.
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