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Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#41
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger question is if Canada can enforce their regressive idea of Free Expression on US Service providers simply because of their presence in Canada Canada has no concept of the 1st amendment,Canada as all kinds of limits on Speech that will never be allowed under the US Constitution.

Canadian here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your sweeping allegation regarding free expression? As it is, this just seems like some random stab that doesn't concern the topic at hand (which has far more immediate concerns tied to it). Section 1 of the Constitution of Canada (1982) outlines freedom of speech. Just about the only thing you can't do, outside of pursuing damages in the court system for specifi…

How do you square the Constitution of Canada with the Human Rights Commission that fines comedians and authors?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commissi...

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#42
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a question of jurisdiction. Should any country's courts be able to restrict what happens in other countries?

I don't know if they should, but de-facto they can. American companies are, for instance, forbidden from doing business within Iran, North Korea, etc. Likewise, nothing stops the US from passing an enforcing a law that requires any foreign companies that do business with the US to follow US laws, even in their operations outside the US.

My mental model for this is as follows:

1. If you are a company based in and operating as a legal entity in Country X, the laws of Country X apply to your business as a whole, including services you offer in Country Y and Country Z.

2. If you are a company based in and operating as a legal entity in Country X but are offering services in Country Y, the laws of Country Y apply only to the services you offer in that Country Y.

All of this can then get mushy and complicated based on international governing bodies, multinational trade agreements and nation-state soft power but absent those constraints, I believe this holds.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#43
post #18

> Google voluntarily removed hundreds of webpages from its Canadian search results on Google.ca. But the material continued to show up on Google's global search results. > So Equustek obtained a further injunction from the court ordering Google to remove the websites from its global search results. > Google appealed and argued it was not a real party to the dispute, and that a global injunction would violate freedom…

There's a question of jurisdiction. Should any country's courts be able to restrict what happens in other countries?

I see your point, but the Internet has made this question a little tricky: they shouldn't be allowed to restrict what happens in other countries, but they should (or at least, they think they should) be allowed to restrict what happens in their own, and Google removing results only for .ca clearly fails to accomplish that. Countries and their courts aren't going to accept "we can't accomplish this order because global internet" for much longer, and the only way I can see to square this circle is more internet Balkanization, which is probably going to accelerate dramatically in the next decade.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#44
post #14
post #4

Tremendously impactful decision, regardless of which side of the case you support. Interestingly, the majority addressed a Google argument centered upon concerns regarding the possibility of international censorship: "Google’s argument that a global injunction violates international comity because it is possible that the order could not have been obtained in a foreign jurisdiction, or that to comply with it would res…

Google's argument seems very close to not being theoretical. For example the US has a law, see https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ223/html/PLAW-111p... for the exact text, which limits the enforceability of foreign judgements within American courts where they impact free speech. This was litigated in Trout Point Lodge v. Doug K. Handshoe and it was found that a Canadian copyright decision is not necessarily en…

I agree! This is part of why I am skeptical about the application of this law to other factual scenarios. The court is ruling in the basis of the absence of any evidence provided by Google to rectify the order.

Had they pleaded the above law and indicated that there were real and substantial concerns in this case, the outcome may have been different. I think Google didn't because this is a picture perfect passing-off case which is illegal straight across the WTO.

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Edit: This passage from the ruling makes it clear that a key piece of the SCC rationale is very, very specific to this case:

"D and its representatives have ignored all previous court orders made against them, have left British Columbia, and continue to operate their business from unknown locations outside Canada. E has made efforts to locate D with limited success. D is only able to survive — at the expense of E’s survival — on Google’s search engine which directs potential customers to D’s websites. This makes Google the determinative player in allowing the harm to occur. On balance, since the world‑wide injunction is the only effective way to mitigate the harm to E pending the trial, the only way, in fact, to preserve E itself pending the resolution of the underlying litigation, and since any countervailing harm to Google is minimal to non‑existent, the interlocutory injunction should be upheld." [Emphasis added]

There are a number of requirements for obtaining an injunction. The key case for determining if an injunction will be granted itself is RJR Macdonald. It provides a fairly large bulwark to stopping stupid injunctions from being used. It requires that the issue be serious, that the harm caused by it be irreparable, and that the balance of convenience favor the arrangement sought. These aren't easy hurdles to jump over.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#45
post #32
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under which legal framework? Common law? Civil law? Old Testament law? Sharia law? The framework laid out by the Constitution of the Soviet Union? The US codex of law, circa 1953? Circa 2007? Circa Citizens United? Should everyone get a chance to vote for choosing it? Should we decide based on population of respective countries? Or do a one-country-one-vote thing? Maybe one dollar of GDP, one vote? Why should Chinese…

Multi-national binding protocols have been done in the past and will be done in the future. Where the international community sees it necessary, there can be the creation of international law. Certainly this case is something for which international law and enforcement regimes can be created.

They are all the products of bi-lateral or multi-lateral treaties, hammered out in secret meetings between senior members of participating governments.

There is absolutely no "International community" involved in this process. It's a private settlement between directly affected parties.

These agreements also tend to be incredibly undemocratic, and are often hilariously hostile to the interests of the constituents of said governments. Be careful what you wish for - what you'll get is less like the European Union, and more like the TPP.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#46
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your sweeping allegation regarding free expression? As it is, this just seems like some random stab that doesn't concern the topic at hand (which has far more immediate concerns tied to it). Section 1 of the Constitution of Canada (1982) outlines freedom of speech. Just about the only thing you can't do, outside of pursuing damages in the court system for specifi…

Huffington post Story http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tom-kott/freedom-of-speech-cana... None of these would be Constitutional in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada Duke Paper on comparing Free Speech in the US vs Canada http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=... i can find more examples later if you want.

That does not support your claim Canada has no concept of freedom of speech in the Constitution.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#47

This wouldn't be the first time a government is requiring Google to modify their search results. This case parallels the "right to be forgotten" cases brought against them by the EU several years ago. There is a reason that civil liberties and human rights organizations like the ACLU are concerned about this precedent. In the US, with the murders of unarmed civilians by law enforcement and subsequent acquittals occur…

People in the US are not "found innocent," they are presumed innocent and found "not guilty."

If someone is found "not guilty" of murder then legally that person has not committed murder, and understandably and justifiably would not want Google (or anyone else) to portray otherwise.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#48
post #18

> Google voluntarily removed hundreds of webpages from its Canadian search results on Google.ca. But the material continued to show up on Google's global search results. > So Equustek obtained a further injunction from the court ordering Google to remove the websites from its global search results. > Google appealed and argued it was not a real party to the dispute, and that a global injunction would violate freedom…

There's a question of jurisdiction. Should any country's courts be able to restrict what happens in other countries?

It seemed odd to me, the objection in principle over jurisdiction but not to the original request to remove bad information, which they fulfilled voluntarily. But I'm sure the situation is more complicated than could be conveyed in those few sentences from the story.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#49
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger question is if Canada can enforce their regressive idea of Free Expression on US Service providers simply because of their presence in Canada Canada has no concept of the 1st amendment,Canada as all kinds of limits on Speech that will never be allowed under the US Constitution.

Canadian here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your sweeping allegation regarding free expression? As it is, this just seems like some random stab that doesn't concern the topic at hand (which has far more immediate concerns tied to it). Section 1 of the Constitution of Canada (1982) outlines freedom of speech. Just about the only thing you can't do, outside of pursuing damages in the court system for specifi…

Popular, pleasant and agreeable speech doesn't need legal protection. The way Canada handles unpopular speech is simply not compatible with freedom of speech as we define it here.

That said, this particular case doesn't have much to do with hate speech and other areas where a clear difference can be seen between US and Canadian law. There are cases in the US where a publisher has been penalized simply for linking to infringed intellectual property -- notably https://w2.eff.org/IP/Video/MPAA_DVD_cases/20020703_eff_2600... -- and that takes away a lot of our moral authority to criticize Canada for misguided decisions like this one. If 2600 Magazine were Canadian, we would certainly have brought our own legal pressure to bear against your country to try to force you to comply with our IP laws.

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