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Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#31
post #12

This kind of stuff should be arbitrated in an international court. Giving an authority in a single country the say on what can and can not be seen on the internet world wide is a terrible idea.

This is unlikely to exist anytime in the near future. Remember, the only currently existing international courts are very limited and domain-specific: there's the ICC, which is specifically limited to heading cases about genocide and war crimes, and the various arbitration courts for trade disputes. That's pretty much it.

A new court for the issue on display here would require a bunch of countries to get together and agree on a common set of standards for free speech, and that seems unworkable at present. The US and Europe don't even see eye-to-eye here, never mind the US and the Middle East (blasphemy laws), or Russia (LGBT material is "degeneracy"), or China (criticism of the Party).

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#32
post #16
post #12

This kind of stuff should be arbitrated in an international court. Giving an authority in a single country the say on what can and can not be seen on the internet world wide is a terrible idea.

Under which legal framework? Common law? Civil law? Old Testament law? Sharia law? The framework laid out by the Constitution of the Soviet Union? The US codex of law, circa 1953? Circa 2007? Circa Citizens United? Should everyone get a chance to vote for choosing it? Should we decide based on population of respective countries? Or do a one-country-one-vote thing? Maybe one dollar of GDP, one vote? Why should Chinese…

Multi-national binding protocols have been done in the past and will be done in the future. Where the international community sees it necessary, there can be the creation of international law. Certainly this case is something for which international law and enforcement regimes can be created.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#33
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger question is if Canada can enforce their regressive idea of Free Expression on US Service providers simply because of their presence in Canada Canada has no concept of the 1st amendment,Canada as all kinds of limits on Speech that will never be allowed under the US Constitution.

Canadian here. Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your sweeping allegation regarding free expression? As it is, this just seems like some random stab that doesn't concern the topic at hand (which has far more immediate concerns tied to it). Section 1 of the Constitution of Canada (1982) outlines freedom of speech. Just about the only thing you can't do, outside of pursuing damages in the court system for specifi…

Huffington post Story http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tom-kott/freedom-of-speech-cana...

None of these would be Constitutional in the US

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

Duke Paper on comparing Free Speech in the US vs Canada

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...

i can find more examples later if you want.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#34
post #11
post #7

A hypothetical: Company A is in country X and company B is in country Y. Country X declares on behalf of company A that company B be blocked from searches worldwide (including country Y). Country Y declares on behalf of company B that company B cannot be blocked from searches (at least in country Y). Who wins in the global context? Whichever can/will fine the most? Does this give benefits to the overly-regulating cou…

The bigger question is if Canada can enforce their regressive idea of Free Expression on US Service providers simply because of their presence in Canada Canada has no concept of the 1st amendment,Canada as all kinds of limits on Speech that will never be allowed under the US Constitution.

> regressive

As opposed to allowing blatant hate speech and other garbage that is allowed in the US.

Freedumb.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#35

This wouldn't be the first time a government is requiring Google to modify their search results. This case parallels the "right to be forgotten" cases brought against them by the EU several years ago. There is a reason that civil liberties and human rights organizations like the ACLU are concerned about this precedent. In the US, with the murders of unarmed civilians by law enforcement and subsequent acquittals occur…

It's not going to be the last time either. Sovereign countries are waking up to the dangers of letting the internet be run by 5 huge American companies, and they're not going to continue to take "the internet is global, your sovereignty isn't" as answer for why their laws and court orders can't be enforced. This is the beginning of widespread internet Balkanization, for better or worse.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#36

This wouldn't be the first time a government is requiring Google to modify their search results. This case parallels the "right to be forgotten" cases brought against them by the EU several years ago. There is a reason that civil liberties and human rights organizations like the ACLU are concerned about this precedent. In the US, with the murders of unarmed civilians by law enforcement and subsequent acquittals occur…

> There is a reason that civil liberties and human rights organizations like the ACLU are concerned about this precedent.

Yes, this sounds bad for the internet in many ways. One recent particular case comes to mind of this guy who is suing Encyclopedia Dramatica (a 4-chan style wiki with a satirical and intentionally humorous backstory for most internet memes). The banner on top of their site asking for donations for a legal battle now says:

>> "JONATHAN MONSARRAT FILED A SLAPP SUIT AGAINST US. "

SLAPP = https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public...

This is a guy who had a profile on the wiki because he was internet famous setting up a fake dating site while a student at MIT in order to get preference to message all girls who signed up. He was investigated for harassing girls. http://hlrecord.org/2003/04/dating-service-creator-accused-o...

He's also a known lawsuit troll who is trying to repair his name in search engines via DMCA claims and lawsuits. He has also sued online commenters who spoke ill about him: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130608/08444123372/jonat...

More about the latest lawsuit here: http://theralphretort.com/encyclopedia-dramatica-in-danger-o...

This just offers people like him another outlet to waste peoples time in court.

But in practice the Streisand Effect has the opposite effect of actually helping him protect his name so I really wonder what practical benefits this really provides anyone.

It seems like there are far more illegitimate reasons for this to be used than good ones. And considering there is no automated way to filter these I'm much more inclined to say there should NOT be a centrally controlled way to remove things from being listed on Google in this way.

Even with this particular court case if a business moves away or shuts down then Google's algorithms will eventually downgrade the ranking of the companies presence online in relation to that location. If they want a global presence then it's up to them to outrank other sites by getting press or for Google to properly flesh out the better sites.

This is a problem that is obviously better solved by Google's engineers than the courts.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately one company can't do business in, and be subject to the jurisdiction of, two countries whose laws require them to do opposite things. If push really came to shove Google would leave Canada--no offices, no ad sales, no shipping physical product there. Maybe even put a clause in their ToS saying that their products couldn't be used from Canada. If they did all that and Canadian courts still tried to fine it…

I consider this the nuclear option and one that is unlikely for a large corp if we're just talking about fines (as opposed to purely opposing laws as in my hypothetical). For a normal company if the ROI of their presence > the negative ROI of complying with orders, they will remain. My question was more targeting the public and whether they accept that more restrictive regional rulings will win out. This also comes i…

if that (the ROI of their presence > the negative ROI of complying with orders) were true, would not Google keep their business going in China?

In reality, it is not easy to measure such RoIs positive or negative.

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#39
post #18

> Google voluntarily removed hundreds of webpages from its Canadian search results on Google.ca. But the material continued to show up on Google's global search results. > So Equustek obtained a further injunction from the court ordering Google to remove the websites from its global search results. > Google appealed and argued it was not a real party to the dispute, and that a global injunction would violate freedom…

There's a question of jurisdiction. Should any country's courts be able to restrict what happens in other countries?

[deleted]

Re: Canada's top court backs order for Google to remove firm's website from searches

#40
post #10
post #4

Tremendously impactful decision, regardless of which side of the case you support. Interestingly, the majority addressed a Google argument centered upon concerns regarding the possibility of international censorship: "Google’s argument that a global injunction violates international comity because it is possible that the order could not have been obtained in a foreign jurisdiction, or that to comply with it would res…

Should every court and country have the right to demand that things are de-indexed worldwide, now that Canada has done so? Does China have the right to demand Tiananmen Square be de-indexed? Germany and Nazi symbols? Russia and satire about Putin? North Korea? The United States? If not, how do we decide? The previous framework was, "you can demand whatever you want within your borders; if it is unacceptable, Google w…

I touched upon this, but honestly this is a very, very large subject that requires familiarity with the Berne Convention and TRIPS/ACTA in order to fully explain.

In the Canadian decision, the de-listing order is contingent on that order not being contrary to compliance requirements elsewhere in the world. However, the SCC doesn't have knowledge of all of those laws, nor should it. Accordingly, it stated the burden upon showing a contradiction rests with the applicant, Google, who didn't want to comply with the order. Google would need to cite specific laws they were in contravention of, rather than just pleading that there may, maybe, somehow be a contradictory requirement. What if there wasn't? Should Google still get to plead international comity in that instance? No.

Positive freedom of speech legislation might work as an alternate requirement, but this was not plead, and this was not a situation where the speech in question is political or particularly protected. It is a very clear instance where a supplier has fled Canada (and they can't find where they're based) in order to attempt to continue crystal clear trademark violations which are causing actual damage to a Canadian business.

The current international trademark framework means that the majority of nations in the world would actually require compliance with this order (well, not exactly, but close enough). The big question is how that machinery should be activated. If the Respondent had the money to pursue passing-off litigation in every jurisdiction, they would likely arrive at a similar result, but functionally, a small company won't be able to pay x200+ times the legal fees for a similar result while their dealflow is being sapped.

This decision, even read very broadly, wouldn't provide countries with the ability to de-index items. Countries don't need that ability; they already have it. Most, however, have bound themselves not to exercise it, but certain, like China, actively pursue control as an overt element of their policy agenda.

I feel like I'm doing a bit of a disservice to the topic, because there is a lot of small nobs and levers that I can't get into without exploding this into a 20 page memorandum. I am confident in stating that the freedom of speech concerns arising from this case are not as dire as portrayed.

Edit: Made the middle a bit clearer.

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