Author of cURL denied entry to the USA • Hacker News Board

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#131

Post by germanier » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:29 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #125

germanier wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally tells you > Your travel authorization has been approved and you are authorized to travel to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program. It then goes on to say (but this is the same for visas as well): > This does not guarantee admission to the United States; a Customs and Border protection (CBP) officer at a port of entry will have the final determination.

I'm not disagreeing that the web page says that. But what it says is terrible inaccurate wording. ESTA simply determines whether you're someone who is, in general, eligible for visa-free travel (which is primarily determined by your country of citizenship -- everything else involved in ESTA is secondary to that). It doesn't grant a visa or guarantee anything about being allowed in. Australia uses an almost-identical…

But what the web page says is exactly what the parent comment complained about. Saying "you are free to travel" and then, without notifying you, deny you boarding is not a nice thing to do (even if it happens for a very valid reason). It just shows the careless attitude of whoever designed that system.

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#132

Post by jorvi » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:30 AM UTC

qume wrote: post #68

Just to balance the narrative here a bit, I have traveled into and out of the US many times per year for around 15 years with no problems on an ESTA. I only recently switched to a visa. After a long flight having to deal with the delay and hassle of immigration seems much worse than it is. I really hate it, and the comments here suggest others do too, but if you look at what we have to deal with objectively it's not…

> If you were calmly asked the same questions by a sweet guy or girl on a chaise longue while being offered champagne and strawberries, people would have almost no problem even though it's really the same thing without the elevated stress level.

Cute girl offers glass of champagne and complimentary strawberry 'so.. I'm gonna need you to unlock your phone, give me the password to your work-related e-mail, your personal e-mail and all your social media accounts.'

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#133

Post by germanier » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:31 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #129

germanier wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true (I posted the exact message it shows you at the end of the process somewhere else in this thread – it explicitly contains the phrase "approved and authorized to travel"). Yes, it does not guarantee you entry. However, it does much more than just to check whether you have a required nationality. If that were all, the system weren't needed. Practically every country has visa-free entry for some…

And as I said in my other reply to you: the wording you are citing is terrible and inaccurate and you should never, ever, ever, EVER, rely on it as an exhaustive legally-binding declaration .

This reply was not at all about the wording but about the fact that the system does more than just checking whether "you appear to be a citizen of a country which, in general, has visa-free entry to the US". If that were all, it would be useless.

Unfortunately as a non-US citizen I have to rely on the system. The alternative would be getting a B1/B2-visa but this doesn't change the fact that I could still be denied entry. (Of course this is the same, I could be denied entry to any non-EU country if they wish so.)

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#134

Post by phicoh » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:31 AM UTC

nickserv wrote: post #79

humanrebar wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This may be unpopular on an US-centric site like HN, but the US looks more and more like they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world: very strict immigration policy, travelers molested by TSA on airports, ... Almost all Americans think this sort of thing is nonsense. But the average American has little standing to hold the American bureaucracy accountable for its nonsense. Americans, especially outsi…

> Almost all Americans think this sort of thing is nonsense. But the average American has little standing to hold the American bureaucracy accountable for its nonsense. Sorry but they don't get off that easy when almost half of them voted Trump into office. > Americans, especially outside overcrowded urban areas, are courteous, helpful, hospitable people that are very tolerant of other people and ideas. I've found qu…

You can't blame this on Trump alone.

8 years of Obama gave increased spying, kept the insane TSA, blocked people born in Iran from entering the country (independent of what nationality they currently have). Gave the ESTA Visa Waiver program, where you have to pay for getting exactly no rights what-so-ever. And as final insult, you are allowed to list the social media you use.

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#135

Post by tankenmate » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:31 AM UTC

moritzplassnig wrote: post #31

zegl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the US and the Swedish airlines are co-operating so that the airline doesn't have to pay for the flight back to Sweden, in case of being denied entry. Many controls are done before leaving Sweden.

Airlines normally utilize your return flight for that. But, it could still mean that their next flight back is slightly (more) overbooked and so they are incentivised to make sure to only board people who have a high chance to get through immigration.

Not only that but airlines are frequently fined for transporting a persona non grata even if it wasn't the airline's fault; so 99.9% of the time if an airline is informed beforehand that a person will not be accepted into the country they will refuse to let them board, they don't want to be liable for a fine.

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#136

Post by ubernostrum » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:31 AM UTC

qume wrote: post #68

Just to balance the narrative here a bit, I have traveled into and out of the US many times per year for around 15 years with no problems on an ESTA. I only recently switched to a visa. After a long flight having to deal with the delay and hassle of immigration seems much worse than it is. I really hate it, and the comments here suggest others do too, but if you look at what we have to deal with objectively it's not…

I don't think it has anything to do with what software he works on.

I'd be willing to bet significant money that it was either a clerical error, or something mundane from his ESTA form that got double-checked and came up "no". I am willing to bet this because I have been in that situation:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14643861

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#137

Post by tgragnato » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:33 AM UTC

qume wrote: post #120

skynode wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regarding Daniel - like others here I'm sure it's because cURL has been used extensively for bad purposes he was kicked off the ESTA program. Yes it sucks that they didn't let him know in advance, and they didn't have the smarts to figure that he had nothing to do with the bad actors. Very strange paragraph right there. I could easily generalize this to Windows powershell is increasingly being used in cyber offensi…

Yes you can generalize this to Windows powershell. And no that does not have anything to do with ejecting Microsoft from the US. Microsoft isn't a private foreign individual using a privileged entry mechanism in the US that given any reason whatsoever can be revoked in favour of a perfectly functional visa process that most countries have to use. ESTA is only available to a few countries, and not all people in those…

No one should be held responsible for a fact that causes damage without direct involvement. The legal system uses `iuris personae` and limited liability precisely for this. Distinguishing a natural person from a legal person in this case is contrary to the purpose of the laws in force.

Each tool can be used for good and for evil: risk management is primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent, uncertain loss, and is embedded by the law for companies, and people too.

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#138

Post by ubernostrum » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:33 AM UTC

germanier wrote: post #133

ubernostrum wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as I said in my other reply to you: the wording you are citing is terrible and inaccurate and you should never, ever, ever, EVER, rely on it as an exhaustive legally-binding declaration .

This reply was not at all about the wording but about the fact that the system does more than just checking whether "you appear to be a citizen of a country which, in general, has visa-free entry to the US". If that were all, it would be useless. Unfortunately as a non-US citizen I have to rely on the system. The alternative would be getting a B1/B2-visa but this doesn't change the fact that I could still be denied e…

Citizenship is the primary determinant of ESTA, because ESTA is the feeder of the Visa Waiver Program which in turn is based entirely on citizenship. Everything else in ESTA is largely just duplicating requirements that would be imposed without ESTA (such as remaining validity of passport, whether you have a return ticket, purpose of visit, etc.).

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#139

Post by ckastner » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:35 AM UTC

thecopy wrote: post #62

ckastner wrote: post #57

What puzzles me is that the ESTA application was approved in the first place. If they were going to deny him entry, why approve it? Could there be a more benign explanation for this issue? For example: his ESTA approval expired (it's valid for two years), or the data entered on the ESTA form did not exactly match his passport data (special characters, middle names, etc.)

>why approve it? It is automatic, there is no human oversight to it as far as i know.

The point is that if his name was on some blacklist or no-fly-list, then this should have had its effect during the (automated) ESTA application process.

Re: Author of cURL denied entry to the USA

#140

Post by humanrebar » Tue, Jun 27, 2017, 10:35 AM UTC

croon wrote: post #102

humanrebar wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call new and capricious changes to immigration policy as right wing or reactionary. It's populist and probably xenophobic but it doesn't really fit on the American ideological spectrum like that. Trump isn't representative of the bulk of the GOP, in other words. When he's gone, you won't see this sort of thing re-emerge. As weird as it sounds to some, Trump won mostly because he was not Clinton, not becaus…

> Trump won mostly because he was not Clinton, not because there's some ideology being advocated here (modulo Supreme Court justices). 1) That doesn't explain him beating out ~12 other seasoned GOPers in the primaries. 2) His platform. 3) Clinton was portrayed as toxic by attacks, not because she was. "But her emails" was something GOPers and DNCers had done for decades before and Trump staff continues to do today. I…

1) Trump didn't even win a majority in the crowded GOP primaries. He was also buoyed for various reasons by a media that would benefit if he won.

2) Trump's platform is Trump. Everybody knows that. He doesn't have an ideology. He contradicted himself all through the campaign so any platform is moot.

3) Clinton was unpopular for many reasons beyond the email stuff. In many ways she was a bad candidate. She was an ultimate political insider, for instance. Personal concerns aside, many people who voted against her were also alarmed that Scalia would be replaced with another Souter or Kagan. Even given Trump's capriciousness, they thought a gamble on a "good" justice was better than a guarantee of a bad one.