Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, I read that, but is it necessary to be publicly on the record? Couldn't the information be privately confirmed, protecting the women from retaliation and still allowing the case/accusation to move forward? It just seems like an unnecessary risk/vulnerability. Of course, there's also the fact that by going on the record you also encourage others to do the same, which is an immeasurable benefit.
I am one of the three women who went on the record with my name: Niniane Wang. I initially asked to be anonymous, but no reporter would publish unless they had named sources. I knew that Justin was continuing to harass women. Using my name was the only way to stop him. In other words, yes, it was necessary to be publicly on the record.
6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
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Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#472Earlier quoted context omitted.
The motivation of the above poster is accuracy. based upon your post I can understand why you find it difficult identifying such a thing, but there it is. You're so blinded by your beliefs you've lost all sense of fairness and balance and mistake moderates as the being of the opposing faction.
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines. Please don't create accounts to do this with.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
The motivation of the above poster is accuracy. based upon your post I can understand why you find it difficult identifying such a thing, but there it is. You're so blinded by your beliefs you've lost all sense of fairness and balance and mistake moderates as the being of the opposing faction.
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the HN guidelines. Please don't create accounts to do this with.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#474Earlier quoted context omitted.
I haven't read this thread yet but I'm curious why the downvote mechanism isn't sufficient moderation in a case like this. HN has been a superb place for discussion of issues relating to workplace harassment and it seems that having certain ideas forbidden is likely to harm the discussion.
It's because comments can have troll effects even when they're downvoted or flagged. There's a difference between expressing a view and setting this place on fire. There's no view that can't be expressed substantively and thoughtfully if one has a mind to, but it takes work. Throwing fuel on the fire or sand in the gears is different; that's vandalism, and it destroys the free exchange of views by ruining the contain…
For the record, I don't agree with that commenter's opinion. And I also believe your actions on these moderation issues are well-intended (plus you're doing a great job, probably especially on the invisible parts, kudos).
But for all the talk about not throwing oil on the fire, maybe it's smart if you then also refrain from calling people "trolls" or "trolling" when they're not intentionally doing so. To use your words, it signals bad faith. Especially if you consider that such a person is probably in a bad or angry mood[0].
In fact, I don't think "trolling effect" is a very good term to use either. That's probably because I carry a sort of romantic idea about my dealings advanced and skilled trolls. Similar to how many people here feel about the term "hacker". Yes there exist criminal hackers, just like there exist mentally insane unstable bad evil trolls. But there are also performance artists[1], or you know, memetic/social hackers. Still not always good, and almost never welcome. They can use their eristic skills to make stuck up people lose face and/or their shit. They can bring to light collective hypocrisy by placing a very careful wedge in a community. Same reasons we need comedy, satire or jesters. Or just cause a scene for the art of it. If they wanted to, they could "set this place on fire" without snark, polemic or even knowing it was them that caused someone else to push a button and whoooommff.
Just like you don't call someone who steals your USB-stick a "hacker" but a "thief", someone who uses polemic swipes and snark because they angrily voice an unpopular opinion on HN, is not (necessarily) a troll. And to them it comes across as if you're just calling them names, which does not create listeners.
Just call it what it is. The "trolling effects" you talk about have a proper word actually, and are called "flame wars". Even better would be if you'd take some of the well-worded snippets from your post above (and possibly previous ones), for copy-pasting the relevant bits, because well it's not really more than about five typical situations on HN, is it?
Since you want to affect this person's behaviour, it helps to be specific, instead of using a catch-all term like "trolling". Pointing out "snark" and "polemic swipes" apply in this case, because that's undeniable and you can quote the words. Calling it "signalling bad faith" is a very bad idea for hopefully obvious reasons[2].
Finally, about your last paragraph. Of course you don't want conformist groupthink either. But just like the so-called "troll", your intentions may not line up with what effects you're causing. Depending on how carefully you tread, you may in fact be inciting groupthink, and ironically this attracts (proper) trolls because they love poking that kind of self-assuredness.
[0] often unrelated stress, but triggered on subjects they feel strongly about--I get this myself as well, but I usually manage to write such words in a textfile, that I keep in a very private very angry folder somewhere (throwing away the vitriol is less cathartic to me, and sometimes there's some useful eloquent bits that come in useful at a calmer moment).
[1] still not welcome here on HN, which I understand, but more for the same reasons why reddit-style pun-threads are not welcome here either.
[2] Because (especially in their eyes) they could say the same about you. Also snark and polemic swipes seem to be called out a lot more consistently when it involves "unpopular opinions on HN" (which exist), I notice this myself, even though I strongly oppose most of these unpopular opinions. And that, by itself, can in fact be considered quite rightly as signalling bad faith. So take care.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#475Earlier quoted context omitted.
I haven't read this thread yet but I'm curious why the downvote mechanism isn't sufficient moderation in a case like this. HN has been a superb place for discussion of issues relating to workplace harassment and it seems that having certain ideas forbidden is likely to harm the discussion.
It's because comments can have troll effects even when they're downvoted or flagged. There's a difference between expressing a view and setting this place on fire. There's no view that can't be expressed substantively and thoughtfully if one has a mind to, but it takes work. Throwing fuel on the fire or sand in the gears is different; that's vandalism, and it destroys the free exchange of views by ruining the contain…
The two topics I enjoy which are continually controversial are the "Russian Hacking" story and stories about Wikileaks. Wikileaks has been an interest for many HN readers for years, and so it's interesting to see how recent events have created political polarization where none existed before.
I've noticed that some users will use the tactic of shaming to try to make a point in a discussion. It's hard to describe this, but it's much more like the sort of comments one finds in other discussion fora than what is typically found on HN. Politics brings these out, yet I would be very disappointed if political topics were discouraged on HN, since political ideas and participation are an important part of citizenship and community. And it may take the sort of retort one would get on HN to break someone out of a lazy "comfort zone" belief that they hold simply because it's popular.
Thanks for your efforts moderating, I know it is a thankless duty, but your comment makes me realize that there are likely threads that I don't participate in which get much worse.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
workplace has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately this isn't true, from a legal point of view; in many jurisdictions, the legal definition of SH is specifically tailored (and constrained) to "the workplace". Mind you I'm not talking about what's "slimy", "invasive", or what infringes on one's natural rights as a human being or anything about that. But rather, the legal definition . Which doesn't always jibe with wha…
Where?
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#477Throughout my work on both sides of the table, I’ve been lucky to have met many very helpful and respected mentors/peers, however, this “risk of networking for female” has never been strange. It started with this: I reached out to someone for advice/business, meetings went great and constructive, a couple of emails and coffee, before I got excited about having a great connection, they may ask for a drink. At first, I was confused but agreed, wondering if this is the “valley/American culture” that I should get used to, then things unexpectedly turned awkward even if I tried to keep the conversations professional. Eventually, I don’t know how to maintain this connection.
Now that I’ve learned to “keep things professional”, but compared to my male friends’ networking experience, I still haven’t figured out the best boundary to set. Does “being professional” mean that I can’t have personal talks with male professionals? If a guy can be both professional connection and personal friend with another guy, why can’t I? I thought that only Asian people mix business and personal connections (given how popular wechat has been used as a “virtual business card” in China), turns out that in US, it’s not that different: you see male investors get drinks to catch up or meet new friends, afterwards they become good business partners.
I believe this is not the first time a female talk about this. Many people’s reaction may be: oh she must have given some hint that caused misunderstanding, or, when a guy does that, just stay away from him.
Hey, what if an attractive lady got into this uncomfortable situation from 1/3 of her networking?
I’m not here to complain. I’m sincerely hoping to hear some advice on how to best handle this networking difficulty, because as far as I know, I’m not alone.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#478Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Axios article ( https://www.axios.com/pro-rata-2446752020.html ) details a long history of sketchy behavior. In addition to the three accusers: - While at lightspeed, accusations from a female founder at a portfolio company was serious enough that the "situation rose to the broader board level, with the ultimate resolution resulting in non-disclosure agreements on all sides." - While at Bain Ventures, a female fo…
Even more relevant: https://www.axios.com/justin-caldbeck-takes-indefinite-leave... Caldbeck has apologized, taken leave, and did not contest any of the claims.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#479Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Another common theme I noticed is when the man in question stays in the gray area where individual incidents aren't clearly over the line and might not qualify legally as sexual harassment, but in context and in aggregate it's clear why a woman would feel very uncomfortable. This seems like a slippery slope. I can imagine malicious but careful predators who constantly test boundaries in a conscious effort to achiev…
How is it a slippery slope? Towards what? Will women eventually begin to feel uncomfortable about situations that are clearly not sexual? Women are already reluctant to come forward when subjected to overt sexual harassment, let alone "gray area" harassment. I don't think anyone has to fear any kind of slippery slope here.
It is describing a continued change of standards over time, with no clearly defined end-goal other than "nobody ever feels uncomfortable".
> Towards what?
Towards a point where a woman can punish a man for being socially awkward because he has a crush.
> Will women eventually begin to feel uncomfortable about situations that are clearly not sexual?
"Clearly" is a useless word here. And sexual? What about romantic? What about platonic, but more than is welcome?
They already do feel uncomfortable as a result of unwanted attention. I've seen it happen. The person I was replying to was suggesting a world where that is actionable.
> Women are already reluctant to come forward when subjected to overt sexual harassment, let alone "gray area" harassment.
Some are reluctant, which is regrettable and we should support them. Some are not reluctant. And some are eager, in hope of a payday. All of those exist.
> I don't think anyone has to fear any kind of slippery slope here.
When a person is discussing a world where even the nebulously defined gray area is legally actionable, and the only standard is "a woman felt uncomfortable" - yes.
It seems like you're replying viscerally to the idea that sexual harassment is not real, or should not be punished? I never suggested such a thing. I just think that if we're going to try and un-blur the gray area, then we need objectively defined standards.
Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
Almost like, the police? The law should be handling sexual harassment. The reasons why we have these issues with companies is because there's a conflict of interest. The police are a third party and have no interest in the success/failure of the company, ideally.
> The law should be handling sexual harassment. I think people on both sides of this issue would love it if the law showed itself capable of handling sexual harassment cases. Unfortunately we have way too much evidence that that just isn't the case. The obvious example that comes to mind is Brock Turner getting three months, and that's in the best case where someone is actually convicted. Far too often it never gets…
You're basically arguing that companies should become their own units of law enforcement with their own punishments as they see fit, with no oversight. That is clearly not going to work. It clearly hasn't.
If the law is unfair, we have the power to change that law. Exceptions always exist but we can not make laws on exceptions. Meanwhile companies continue to allow harassment on a daily basis, Look at Fox News. Multiple cases. Imagine in other corporations?