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The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

warisboring.com

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Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#51
post #18

It's pretty scary how the article goes from killing Nazis is fantastic, to anybody at my right is a Nazi and it's morally ok to punch them. >Too often, when we engage in arguments with extremists who talk of racial purity, we falter to explain our side. Instead, we punch them and tell them “because.” >Nationalism leads to war So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric…

So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them?

If they're carrying a battle flag (a specific design you can look up) then they're literally signalling that they're there for purposes of conquest. It's perfectly OK to oppose that.

I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric. It's not compatible with free speech. It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and truth than with violence. The second option makes you look like the Gestapo or the NKVD

But the 'racial purity' ideology is not always expressed in terms of their personal life choices about who they start a family with. Rather, it frequently comes paired with the assertion that the Other must be conquered, driven away, or eliminated.

'More speech' sounds really nice in principle, but I'm guessing you're not a member of any group that is threatened by eliminationist rhetoric, and people who are under threat are not obliged to serve as martyrs for you to use as moral exemplars in polite debate. Thus, the 'unlimited free speech' argument is a very privileged one, because speech is only free if it can be engaged in without existential anxiety.

Consider Jeremy Christian, the guy who killed two people and injured a third in Portland just weeks ago. He was yelling abuse at two female passengers on the train and people intervened to ask him to stop, and he attacked them with a knife. Those people took your 'more speech' approach and they're dead, are they not? No more speech of any kind for them, and no speech of yours can possibly restore them to their families.

Why, exactly, should people have to subject themselves to injury or death at the hands of bad actors before they're allowed to take any other action in your value schema? By feitishizing 'free speech' without regard to the consequences, you're giving extremists a license to engage in criminal threats but insisting that the people who are the subject of such threats do nothing to safeguard their own persons.

If your approach is so great, how does authoritarianism get off the ground anywhere? Why isn't it just talked out of existence by people armed only with reason and truth? What good are reason and truth when confronted with anti-rationalist ideologies that ignore logic and rely on atavistic emotional appeals, and which are demonstrably successful in activating people to commit violence against innocent people and populations?

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#52
This thread is all over the place. Did I read a different article, or misread this one?

Here's what I read:

Pop culture has a possibly unfortunate habit of co-opting Nazism as an all-purpose source of villains. Because it assumes everyone understands why Nazism is evil, our culture rarely provides any historical context for its Nazi villains. Worse, to heighten drama, our all-purpose villains must be made continuously more intimidating and powerful.

The problem is that you're now left with a small army of generic bad-ass villains. Without the context of what it truly meant for a world power to be actively genocidal, those bad-ass Nazi villains can end up as figures for emulation or admiration or respect, for the same reason we put bad-ass villains on heavy metal album covers or use them as team mascots.

So the value of a title like Wolfenstein: The New Order is that it actually takes the time to try to break the cycle of "Nazi As Bad-Ass Signifier".

I don't know how important this point is, but it seems valid and worth thinking about; or, at least, I'd never thought about it before.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#53
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and truth than with violence Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

One of the most chilling comments I've ever read on this site. How does one provide evidence of the content of their heart?

Nobody's asking for validation of the contents of a persons heart. But people are saying that certain speech acts deserve unyielding opposition because they consist of exhortations to violence. Why conflate two different things?

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#54
post #18

It's pretty scary how the article goes from killing Nazis is fantastic, to anybody at my right is a Nazi and it's morally ok to punch them. >Too often, when we engage in arguments with extremists who talk of racial purity, we falter to explain our side. Instead, we punch them and tell them “because.” >Nationalism leads to war So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric…

So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? If they're carrying a battle flag (a specific design you can look up) then they're literally signalling that they're there for purposes of conquest. It's perfectly OK to oppose that. I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric. It's not compatible with free speech. It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason…

You moved the goal posts. Virtually all of us "oppose" Nazism. That doesn't make it OK to physically attack them.

Once again: if it's OK for us to punch Nazis, it must also be OK for anti-abortion activists to violently attack abortion clinics. Their argument that abortion clinics are murder factories --- and argument I vehemently disagree with --- is on firmer ground than our argument that white supremacist speech is somehow intrinsically violent.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#55
post #52

This thread is all over the place. Did I read a different article, or misread this one? Here's what I read: Pop culture has a possibly unfortunate habit of co-opting Nazism as an all-purpose source of villains. Because it assumes everyone understands why Nazism is evil, our culture rarely provides any historical context for its Nazi villains. Worse, to heighten drama, our all-purpose villains must be made continuousl…

You seem to have missed the half of the article which was about today's political climate

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#56
post #6

Having played the game, it's just a shoot em up with a goofy story to justify shooting things. Nobody is going to care about it in 10 years. The only reason anyone cares about it now is cause everything is a culture war and complaining on the Internet about games you aren't gonna buy is a great way of fighting it, apparently. I ran into some Holocaust deniers on Reddit a couple of weeks ago. Those people are so far g…

I heard someone on a podcast make a VERY passionate defense of the game. Not only was it well made and presented a good story (for a shooter) but a main character (THE main character?) was Jewish and as a Jew that was a huge thing for him. There was a Jewish character who wasn't tokenized or just a stereotype but a well written and critical to the plot. Helpful and not inept but strong and self directed. Representati…

Similar to the bit in "Knocked Up" about how "Munich" is a great movie because the Jewish characters are all bad-asses, not victims.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#57
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neo-nazis and their ideology directly threatens the very lives of a lot of people, and it's basically impossible to argue against them because they already understand these ir position and just don't care about any of the myriad reasons why they're wrong. This is where the "punch a nazi" thing comes from. They're a very real personal threat to people, and they can't be convinced to change their mind, so all you can r…

This logic ends nowhere good for anyone. If you can punch away evil, so can the people who believe abortion clinics are murder factories --- in fact, their arguments are even better than ours.

Not if they don't support factual sex education and easy availability of contraception.

If they don't then they're probably just fascists using emotive subjects to gain power (see the blood libel against the Jews) or suckers falling for the fascist propaganda.

It's great that Godwin can't be applied to this thread.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#58
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and truth than with violence Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Are you advocating violent suppression of views you dislike? Do you not see an irony there?

Yes...?

I advocate violent suppression of those who think genocide is appropriate. I don't advocate violent suppression of people talking loudly on cellphones.

Can't you see a difference?

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#59
post #52

This thread is all over the place. Did I read a different article, or misread this one? Here's what I read: Pop culture has a possibly unfortunate habit of co-opting Nazism as an all-purpose source of villains. Because it assumes everyone understands why Nazism is evil, our culture rarely provides any historical context for its Nazi villains. Worse, to heighten drama, our all-purpose villains must be made continuousl…

You seem to have missed the half of the article which was about today's political climate

What do you think the article is saying about today's political climate? All I read is that there are American Internet Nazis and that we're not very good at getting rid of them. That seems like a banal observation.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#60
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neo-nazis and their ideology directly threatens the very lives of a lot of people, and it's basically impossible to argue against them because they already understand these ir position and just don't care about any of the myriad reasons why they're wrong. This is where the "punch a nazi" thing comes from. They're a very real personal threat to people, and they can't be convinced to change their mind, so all you can r…

This logic ends nowhere good for anyone. If you can punch away evil, so can the people who believe abortion clinics are murder factories --- in fact, their arguments are even better than ours.

No they're not. People who object to abortion clinics claim to be intervening on behalf of a third party (the fetus) whose legal status is that of a non-person in law and whose moral status is indeterminable by rational means.

Quite a lot of the people who are willing to punch Nazis are, by contrast, people who feel their own persons are threatened, as opposed to being outsiders choosing to insert themselves into a private dispute.

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