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The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

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Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#21

Post by louithethrid »

anigbrowl wrote: post #17
arthur_trudeau wrote: post #5

If you think "nazi ideology" or their actions are uniquely horrible, you are either historically illiterate, or so parochial that only their particular victims are of concern to you. History, especially twentieth century history, is a charnel house.

Nazi ideology is not uniquely horrible, as other eliminationist rhetorics have existed and led to genocides of their own. Nor are their actions unique in numerical terms, as other authoritarian regimes have engaged in systematic genocides through famine etc. with similarly large loss of life. But Nazism is unique in its combination of rhetoric and scale, and also in its instantiation within a highly developed society…

I think that is what scares the author the most- that all this education, all the remembering and memoria- just evaporates- a thin layer of paint on a savage creature.

And one must admit, that at the moment it does not look very good for freedom, democracy and civilsation as a whole.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#23

Post by [deleted] »

lucio wrote: post #18

It's pretty scary how the article goes from killing Nazis is fantastic, to anybody at my right is a Nazi and it's morally ok to punch them. >Too often, when we engage in arguments with extremists who talk of racial purity, we falter to explain our side. Instead, we punch them and tell them “because.” >Nationalism leads to war So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric…

[deleted]

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#24

Post by glibgil »

lucio wrote: post #18

It's pretty scary how the article goes from killing Nazis is fantastic, to anybody at my right is a Nazi and it's morally ok to punch them. >Too often, when we engage in arguments with extremists who talk of racial purity, we falter to explain our side. Instead, we punch them and tell them “because.” >Nationalism leads to war So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric…

> It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and truth than with violence

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#25

Post by 4bpp »

Well, this sort of depiction is always a many-edged sword. After seeing a media argument that amounts to "Nazis are these grotesquely inhumane monsters, and therefore it's okay to punch them", you'll have some people taking away that they should punch Nazis (their own, possibly much more general definition), some people actively trying to expand the "Nazi" label to their political opposition (so they are flagged for punching), and some people becoming more easily persuaded by actual Nazis because they aren't dangling any babies by their legs like garbage bags and therefore don't pattern-match against the Nazis they have been taught to punch.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#26

Post by doctorless »

glibgil wrote: post #24
lucio wrote: post #18

It's pretty scary how the article goes from killing Nazis is fantastic, to anybody at my right is a Nazi and it's morally ok to punch them. >Too often, when we engage in arguments with extremists who talk of racial purity, we falter to explain our side. Instead, we punch them and tell them “because.” >Nationalism leads to war So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric…

> It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and truth than with violence Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Are you advocating violent suppression of views you dislike? Do you not see an irony there?

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#27

Post by aaron-lebo »

glibgil wrote: post #24
lucio wrote: post #18

It's pretty scary how the article goes from killing Nazis is fantastic, to anybody at my right is a Nazi and it's morally ok to punch them. >Too often, when we engage in arguments with extremists who talk of racial purity, we falter to explain our side. Instead, we punch them and tell them “because.” >Nationalism leads to war So if you see somebody waving a flag, you punch them? I don't like the "punch them" rhetoric…

> It's way better to combat "racial purity" ideologies (or any other speech) with more speech, with reason and truth than with violence Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Gandhi and King. Violence just leads to more violence and hatred.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#28

Post by aaron-lebo »

anigbrowl wrote: post #19
aaron-lebo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of media like this is to activate and motivate people who are ideologically uncommitted and assure of them the facts that Nazism is a dangerous ideology and that it's OK and indeed necessary to oppose it with violence if and when other means are insufficient. We've failed at a fundamental level if the grandkids of the victims and survivors of that war don't understand what happened is evil and wrong. It's j…

I wrote in the very first sentence that the point is not to change minds, which you inexplicably ignored. The point is to motivate people to fight against Nazism. The game is not about gunning down waves of random in an enjoyable spree of virtual destruction, but about gunning down Nazis qua proponents of genocide.

I wasn't really trying to pick a fight with you. I've played games for a long time and based on my biased experience with gamers, you don't play first person shooters because you're trying to learn something. You play them because it's entertainment with big explosions and escapism.

Some people will learn something from it, sure. Hopefully they get through high school understanding that, though.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#29

Post by bashinator »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #20

I find the constant comparison of present-day US to Nazi Germany a bit disrespectful. Not disrespectful of people in the present day (necessarily), but to those who actually survived Nazi Germany. What would you think, if you were a someone who survived a concentration camp, to have people consistently claim that the modern-day US is anywhere near as bad? I understand that the US is far from perfect, but we are also…

Let's not forget that the Nazi's took power during a time of democracy, with full support of a plurality of the vote. Between that and Trump's overt authoritarianism, it's fair that people will draw analogies between the situations.

Re: The Surprising Importance of ‘Wolfenstein: The New Order’

#30

Post by dom96 »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #20

I find the constant comparison of present-day US to Nazi Germany a bit disrespectful. Not disrespectful of people in the present day (necessarily), but to those who actually survived Nazi Germany. What would you think, if you were a someone who survived a concentration camp, to have people consistently claim that the modern-day US is anywhere near as bad? I understand that the US is far from perfect, but we are also…

I think the point of this article is more about the fact that there are signs which suggest that the US is heading towards Nazi Germany, not that it already is as bad.
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