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Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

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Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#61

Post by dwaltrip »

DanHulton wrote: post #58
dwaltrip wrote: post #28

So I understand that Justin made some serious mistakes in pursuing his interest in several female entrepreneurs. Does there exist an acceptable manner for someone in a position like his to pursue such an interest? I'd imagine it would depend a lot on the context -- for example, it seems clear to me it would be very inappropriate to do so during any time period where a deal was being negotiated. And of course, general…

I'd imagine the massive power imbalance makes this effectively impossible. That said, I think it's irrelevant. We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work. This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else . If you're looking for something a little more tawdry, th…

> We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work.

> This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else.

This analysis, while capable of broadly preventing harm, seems to overlook some reasonable situations.

Scenario: male VC, female founder. Have interacted numerous times at casual events over the past year or two, with several longer/more meaningful conversations. No business relationship between them, and no deals on the horizon. Some apparent mutual chemistry and interest. The extent of this romantic potential is not fully known yet (obviously).

Is it still wrong to cautiously and respectfully pursue this, at least while both parties appear interested? To me that would feel like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If it's not obvious, I'm assuming a decent level of maturity and self control here.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#62

Post by ceejayoz »

FT_intern wrote: post #57
dwaltrip wrote: post #28

So I understand that Justin made some serious mistakes in pursuing his interest in several female entrepreneurs. Does there exist an acceptable manner for someone in a position like his to pursue such an interest? I'd imagine it would depend a lot on the context -- for example, it seems clear to me it would be very inappropriate to do so during any time period where a deal was being negotiated. And of course, general…

Don't work in tech? Business development/marketing/real estate fields are full of young people who boink all the time. It actually happens much less frequently in tech because of the language/cultural barrier from the high immigrant population and the introvertedness of engineers. It's just highlighted and seen as controversial when it happens in tech.

That's a gross misrepresentation of the issue here.

The issue is not young people having sex with each other. The issue is powerful people dating people they have significant power over. Business development/marketing/real estate fields generally don't let bosses seduce employees, either.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#63

Post by ceejayoz »

maxxxxx wrote: post #56
obstinate wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more impressive to not harass women founders. This apology moves him above harassers who don't apologize, but still miles below non-harassers. Beware of giving someone too much credit for doing something very harmful, then apologizing for it effusively. It doesn't undo the harm.

I am not giving him credit and I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same stuff again like a lot of other abusers. I was just surprised that at least what he wrote was not the usual passive aggressive stuff public figures put out. Stuff like "I am sorry if my actions got interpreted as harmful".

He started with the passive-aggressive version.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14622737

I'm guessing someone followed up with "I have all the texts."

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#64

Post by obstinate »

debaserab2 wrote: post #30
obstinate wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more impressive to not harass women founders. This apology moves him above harassers who don't apologize, but still miles below non-harassers. Beware of giving someone too much credit for doing something very harmful, then apologizing for it effusively. It doesn't undo the harm.

So how long do we have to ostracize him for before we can treat him like a human being again? Or does he wear the scarlett letter forever now? Is it not okay to note that he appears to be taking the right first steps?

I don't necessarily mind acknowledging the apology. What I do mind is what I see as a lot of people going out of their way to give him props for apologizing, and relatively few people actually talking about how heinous his behavior is. Especially after factoring in where these comments are appearing relatively in their respective threads.

In my mind, that creates a signal that men -- and it is mostly men on this site -- care more about the appearance of remorse than the actual victimization of women that this man perpetrated.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#65

Post by ceejayoz »

jasonkostempski wrote: post #53
jakobegger wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience on HN is that stories about sexism often disappear quickly. It's often that I click on a story on the front page to read the comments, only to see it flagged a few moments later. My explanation is that there is a significant number of HN readers that flag stories about sexism in tech because they don't believe them, but of course I don't have any evidence for that.

It's seems more likely that, like me, they flag them because they clearly fall into the Off-Topic category of the HN guidelines.

Were they off-topic in Uber's case? I'm not sure how something that took down Travis Kalanick isn't relevant on HN.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#66

Post by maxxxxx »

ceejayoz wrote: post #63
maxxxxx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not giving him credit and I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same stuff again like a lot of other abusers. I was just surprised that at least what he wrote was not the usual passive aggressive stuff public figures put out. Stuff like "I am sorry if my actions got interpreted as harmful".

He started with the passive-aggressive version. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14622737 I'm guessing someone followed up with "I have all the texts."

Had to edit my initial comment.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#67

Post by obstinate »

dwaltrip wrote: post #61
DanHulton wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine the massive power imbalance makes this effectively impossible. That said, I think it's irrelevant. We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work. This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else . If you're looking for something a little more tawdry, th…

> We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work. > This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else. This analysis, while capable of broadly preventing harm, seems to overlook some reasonable situations. Scenario: male VC, female founder. Have interacted numerous t…

I find it deeply disturbing that you're more concerned about how male VCs can get their rocks off than the actual harassment that occurred here.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#68

Post by obstinate »

ceejayoz wrote: post #33
dwaltrip wrote: post #28

So I understand that Justin made some serious mistakes in pursuing his interest in several female entrepreneurs. Does there exist an acceptable manner for someone in a position like his to pursue such an interest? I'd imagine it would depend a lot on the context -- for example, it seems clear to me it would be very inappropriate to do so during any time period where a deal was being negotiated. And of course, general…

As with a doctor dating patients or a lawyer dating clients, I'd say a VC should probably look outside the entrepreneurship realm for dates. Too much potential for the power dynamic to impact consent.

At a minimum, recuse oneself from any decisions or oversight over the decisions related to a particular deal. But actually just don't, as ceejayoz has said.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#69

Post by FT_intern »

ceejayoz wrote: post #62
FT_intern wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't work in tech? Business development/marketing/real estate fields are full of young people who boink all the time. It actually happens much less frequently in tech because of the language/cultural barrier from the high immigrant population and the introvertedness of engineers. It's just highlighted and seen as controversial when it happens in tech.

That's a gross misrepresentation of the issue here. The issue is not young people having sex with each other. The issue is powerful people dating people they have significant power over. Business development/marketing/real estate fields generally don't let bosses seduce employees, either.

That's not really relevant since both situations most likely have similar ratios of occurrence when comparing tech to those fields.

I can imagine that bosses in the business development/marketing/real estate fields make advances on female subordinates at much higher rates also. Again, people only care when it happens in tech.

Re: Female founders accuse VC Justin Caldbeck of making unwanted advances

#70

Post by dwaltrip »

obstinate wrote: post #67
dwaltrip wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're adults, and should be able to recognize that this isn't a fairy tale where you see someone and fall in love at first sight and need to risk it all to make it work. > This is a business relationship. If you're looking for love, look somewhere else. This analysis, while capable of broadly preventing harm, seems to overlook some reasonable situations. Scenario: male VC, female founder. Have interacted numerous t…

I find it deeply disturbing that you're more concerned about how male VCs can get their rocks off than the actual harassment that occurred here.

It's called a tangent, is that not allowed? Also, you are grotesquely mischaracterizing my line of discussion.

I made it very clear in my comments in this thread that I fully agree Justin made many enormous mistakes. Is that disclaimer insufficient?

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