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Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

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Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#31
post #7

Guessing candidates personality and look at life based on hobbies is perfect receipe for hiring based on various biases, prejudices and wrong guesses HR manager will make about hobbies he/she knows little about. Savy candidate will pick a hobby that will make him look good anyway. (Don't mention metal or rap, don't mention you actually don't have one, don't mention stereotypically girly hobby, do mention reading and…

The "hobby" question got a lot easier after having kids - my hobbies are what my kids are interested in this year. If that turns them off in any way, I don't want to work there.

I have all daughters, and I've recently started a new hobby, painting.

I've been doing quite well. I e been watching Bob Ross, and started painting things I find o. Reddit...

The goal is to be able to paint butterflies and unicorns, but I'm currently on trees and mountains and clouds..

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#32

I have a question - do HR actually have any input into hiring these days? My experience mostly startups for many years is that HR people are concerned with paper work, health care, 401K, payroll etc. My experience has been that the "recruiter" is now the gatekeeper. They decide who's resume is seen by a team looking to hire. And I think this is rather unfortunate as recruiters seem to be short term employees. I also…

> do HR actually have any input into hiring these days ... my experience has been that the "recruiter" is now the gatekeeper.

What department are recruiters part of if not human resources?

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One of my favorite hobbies is piano" "Oh yeah? What's your favorite scale?" "Uh what?" "Can you tell me your favorite major triad?" "..." interviewer assumes person is lying because their level of enthusiasm and knowledge doesn't match up to their expectations of what a "true piano hobbyist is" when really person just likes to play chopsticks on the piano or lookup yt videos on how to play pop songs

"I like to play my favorite songs, I don't really know any music theory." But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level. Would you call yourself a polyglot because you know how to say "I love you." in eight different languages? Would you expect others to consi…

You must not gig with too many professional singer songwriters...

I'm doing that tonight, and I dunno if I've met more that a couple who know what sus chord does. And I'm talking about folks who make their living from music.

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#34
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I like to play my favorite songs, I don't really know any music theory." But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level. Would you call yourself a polyglot because you know how to say "I love you." in eight different languages? Would you expect others to consi…

> But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level. No. In fact, the very definition of a hobby refutes this. A hobby is purely anything you have taken interest in for mere pleasure or to fill leisure time. Hobby's synonyms are pastime, leisurely activity, leisur…

>In fact, the very definition of a hobby refutes this

I don't care much for definitions - because dictionaries are often years or decades behind how words are literally used.

In this case it's a matter of breaking expectation - and not because the statement is "wrong". The statement would be correct but goes against what people are expecting when they ask such a question.

If someone were to tell you "My hobby is drawing." what do you first imagine? Perhaps not hyper realistic graphite drawings but you're probably imagining something with at least a mediocre level of talent. Decent proportions, an understanding of depth, at least the basics! How surprised would you be if they showed you a bunch of crudely drawn stick figures that look like a three year old drew them? Would you think they were pulling a joke on you?

If someone says "I'm a programmer" would it break your expectations to find out that they can only write `=SUM(A2:B2)` into an Excel spreadsheet? How many people do you think would disagree that they are "a programmer" if that is the extent of their programming talent? Do you think that would be a majority of people or a minority of people? If someone put on their resume that they had 8 years of programming experience and failed to mention that it was only with Excel functions would you count that against them when hiring them? Would you consider it manipulative or shady? It's the equivalent of saying "I handle financial transactions for a multi-billion dollar company." when you're a cashier at McDonalds. Factually correct, but you better only be saying it in jest or you would be considered a manipulative asshole.

By the way, my listed criteria did not exclude them. The first judgement is one of ability - all of them would pass as musicians by that alone.

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#35
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I like to play my favorite songs, I don't really know any music theory." But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level. Would you call yourself a polyglot because you know how to say "I love you." in eight different languages? Would you expect others to consi…

You must not gig with too many professional singer songwriters... I'm doing that tonight, and I dunno if I've met more that a couple who know what sus chord does. And I'm talking about folks who make their living from music.

Which is why ability is judged before knowledge. If you play in the New York Philharmonic I couldn't give a damn if you even know what the definition of a chord is.

Also if you're a professional, by definition, you're not a hobbyist.

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#36
If the interviewer is non-technical, I highly doubt they will be able to estimate the candidate's technical problem-solving abilities based on those questions. Trying to find out about soft skills is fine, but there is no magic trick to evaluate about something you don't understand yourself...

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I like to play my favorite songs, I don't really know any music theory." But honestly, there is an expectation of some level of competency/knowledge when trying to "claim" a hobby, because people consider a hobby as something you involve yourself in at more than a surface level. Would you call yourself a polyglot because you know how to say "I love you." in eight different languages? Would you expect others to consi…

That is such a weird expectation to have. I play the Beethoven Sonata's I play well. I'd have to answer with dunno to all those questions. My piano teacher did have a professional jazz pianist as a student, because he wanted to learn some more traditional techniques. Yesterday I went to a class of a famous Brazilian percussionist. When I asked him about whether there is a dictionary of the rhythms, so I can at least…

The third person who failed to notice I put ability before knowledge. Also the second person to bring up someone with talent as an example when the original argument is that talent shouldn't matter, and I'm saying there is an expectation that it does. (Unless they say they are a beginner)

If that famous Brazilian percussionist was instead a shitty percussionist with no rhythm - would he still be famous? Would he even be considered a percussionist by other people?

I have a feeling I'm either making my argument poorly or people are trying to read between the lines and missing my point.

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#38

I have a question - do HR actually have any input into hiring these days? My experience mostly startups for many years is that HR people are concerned with paper work, health care, 401K, payroll etc. My experience has been that the "recruiter" is now the gatekeeper. They decide who's resume is seen by a team looking to hire. And I think this is rather unfortunate as recruiters seem to be short term employees. I also…

> do HR actually have any input into hiring these days ... my experience has been that the "recruiter" is now the gatekeeper. What department are recruiters part of if not human resources?

> What department are recruiters part of if not human resources?

I assume they're referring to third-party recruiters

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#39

I have a question - do HR actually have any input into hiring these days? My experience mostly startups for many years is that HR people are concerned with paper work, health care, 401K, payroll etc. My experience has been that the "recruiter" is now the gatekeeper. They decide who's resume is seen by a team looking to hire. And I think this is rather unfortunate as recruiters seem to be short term employees. I also…

I consider an HR interview to be a huge red flag when talking to a new company. In fact, I generally don't follow up if HR plays a significant presence in the initial interview process.

To me, it's a strong signal that the company doesn't understand software development and is trying to shoehorn it in like every other department. That's generally something that seeps into all facets of the workplace, and you find yourself wasting time arguing over locked-down machines, workspace standardization, common spaces, dress codes, etc.

Interview "advice" like this is a good example of why HR shouldn't be in the early process. I mean, seriously, hobbies?

PS. I agree there's a huge recruiter problem, but I don't think HR is the solution.

Re: Job Interview for IT Pro: Guide for HR Managers

#40

I have a question - do HR actually have any input into hiring these days? My experience mostly startups for many years is that HR people are concerned with paper work, health care, 401K, payroll etc. My experience has been that the "recruiter" is now the gatekeeper. They decide who's resume is seen by a team looking to hire. And I think this is rather unfortunate as recruiters seem to be short term employees. I also…

Here is a fundamental way HR can affect hiring:

Do you have a low credit score (maybe through no fault of your own, e.g. medical bills)? Do you have a "checkered" past -- maybe many years distant, now, with a solid track record in between?

Do you not test as "mainstream" on psychological evaluations?

These are all things that can stop you from getting to the next step in the hiring process, at an established company implementing the ever vaunted "best practices". (Which, when widely followed, can really only ever be the "standard" (some might say, mediocre) practices.)

HR doesn't evaluate your true professionalism. They just make sure you don't deviate too far from standard.

One reason actual teams and hiring managers sometimes have to put significant effort into fighting their own HR. Or deciding whether doing so is worth the risk to their own jobs and standing.

P.S. Yes, I'm pretty cynical about HR -- the result of long experience.

This month, I've watch HR at another large, established institution (this one focused on healthcare) take the easy way out of letting a supervisor and her favored push out a better employee, instead of investigating what's really going on (which, given the nature of the job and all the client interfacing and record-keeping, wouldn't be that hard to do).

HR there appears to actually have started picking up on what's happening (truly abusive behavior by this supervisor and her cronies, lying, and borderline neglect of their own jobs -- foisting their duties onto the underdog employees). Nonetheless, it's easier to accept a forced resignation than to try to address the team problem. Which will fester until something really goes wrong.

Or, if HR there is good at its job, within the scope of what they're willing to do, until they can build enough of a case/impetus against this supervisor to force her out, on their terms and timeline.

Even if they do that, they've let at least two of their best employees get screwed over, in the meantime. Go, HR! /s

As always, as an employee, HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. They take care of themselves, and the institution. You only win if it's the easy win, for them. Or with lawyers.

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