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Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

bicycletimesmag.com

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Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#81

Post by jrf6 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #11

Easily the biggest problem in the US with biking is that the infrastructure is, nearly without exception, absolutely atrocious. Nobody would accept having only 'painted walk lanes' on busy streets to get around, much less having them appear and disappear from the road seemingly at random, and yet that's the default state of bike lanes in nearly all US cities. If biking had as much infrastructure as even walking -- me…

I've been a cyclist in DC (and Boston) for almost 20 years, and the changes over that time have been fairly astounding. Overall, DC is doing a pretty good job [0]. The gradual transition from a little stripe to demarcate the bike lane to protected cycle tracks that take up a full lane of traffic has made a huge difference.

[0] - http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/03/08/street-by-street-dc-bu...

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#82

Post by phicoh »

coldpie wrote: post #66
sidlls wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have more sympathy for your position if auto drivers didn't seem to think they owned the road, margins, turn lanes and basically anything else that isn't a building. Shared space doesn't mean "shared with other auto drivers only."

Okay, so why doesn't it work? You can complain about drivers all you like, but fundamentally car traffic and bike traffic are incompatible. You can't expect a driver traveling at 30 MPH on a 30 MPH road to suddenly and calmly accept that they are now traveling 10 MPH because of the guy in front of them. Swap the biker for a driver going 20 MPH under the speed limit and you're looking at a road rage situation. Sharing…

Strange that is was like that for ages in the Netherlands. On minor residential roads the speed limit is now usually 30 km/h (around 20 MPH), but is was 50 km/h for a long time (30 MPH). Often a car has to wait to overtake a bike.

Of course if cyclists can rely on cars to pass them carefully, they can move all the way to the side to let the car pass. But that doesn't work with aggressive car drivers.

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#83

Post by throwaway2016a »

pc86 wrote: post #72
throwaway2016a wrote: post #57

Ironically (perhaps?) I think in the US the cities are often doing a good job but suburbs are awful. At least where I live, I can bike in my own neighborhood but to get from my neighborhood to the commercial districts where the actual jobs are I need to essentially go on a highway and share the road with 40 MPH cars. When neighborhoods are spread out it makes biking hard. Where I am at least, neighborhoods tend to be…

In my state it is illegal for anything but a motorized vehicle to be on the highway (and rightfully so as most traffic is 70 mph+ outside of rush hour). With rare exception I've seen cyclists on most of the busy multi-lane surface streets where it is 45+ and traffic is going 10-15 faster than that. What metro area are you in? It seems odd that there are no surface streets at all between two points just a few miles aw…

I'm in New Hampshire. Part of the Manchester-Nashua metro region or the Boston metro depending on which survey you use.

I think the word highway might have some regional nuance. Around here there are often open highways (highways with stop lights and connected side roads) and bikes are allowed to go on them. Although I wouldn't feel safe doing it. Bikes are not allowed on the kind of highway you are thinking of here either.

The speed limit on those roads tends to be 35 or 40 MPH. Not 65 like it would be on a large highway.

Edit: Here's an example from Nashua, NH (for privacy I found a place similar to where I live but not actually where I live).

Notice how the residential on the left is completely separated from the commercial on the right by "Daniel Webster Highway"... one could easily bike on that road if there were bike lanes but it is an extremely busy road and there is no safe way for a bike to take a left hand turn to get to the other side.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Daniel+Webster+Hwy,+Nashua...

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#84

Post by wiredfool »

sideshowb wrote: post #5

In my day job I have simulated the effects of segregated cycle infrastructure on demand http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0966692316... (above is out of date, more recent work under review: http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/sdna/european-transport-conference-... ) So far I have shied away from simulating on-road cycle lanes, e.g. where motor vehicles and bikes are separated by a line of paint. Firstly because…

There have been a lot of lanes going in around Dublin, and frankly, most of them are useless.

Some of them are grade separated from the main road by a inch high curb. Just high enough to catch a wheel and cause a wreck.

Most of them just collect road debris like the shoulders.

Some of them are de-facto parking lanes.

Some of them are confusing enough that it's seriously unclear what the lane actually means. (I say this as someone who had to go through the whole driver licensing scheme here after 20 yrs driving in the US, so I've seen all the rules from the POV of an experienced driver.)

For example: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6089878,-6.1934201,90m/data=...

What the hell are those cycle turn boxes in the middle of the car lanes? They have a solid border, so they're 'mandatory'. They're unavoidable by cars. And if you're in one, you better have right of way already, because squishy. (and fwiw, the one other cyclist I saw at that junction was using the crosswalk).

And then there's the cycle lanes near Greystone where they exist for one block, then there's something that looks like a crosswalk for bikes, and they dissappear for a block, then they reappear again.

At some point, you just have to assume that some one with a can of paint is taking the piss and you just ride in a straight line like any other vehicle.

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#85

Post by sleepychu »

pmontra wrote: post #65
zwp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i milanesi hanno percorso in media 18,6 miglia > in bici per andare al lavoro... > velocità media a Milano 14,8 miglia all’ora "The Milanese cyclist averages 18.7 miles per day to go to work... at an average speed of 14.8 mph". Is my translation okay? That seems improbable [time & distance, not speed]: the _average_ Milanese cyclo-commuter takes over an hour each way? Currently 36C/97F in Milan. Or is this per week…

That's so weird: nobody uses miles in Italy (or Europe, except the UK). I checked the article and the source is Strava Insight which probably defaults to miles. The journalist copied and pasted without converting the units into something readers would understand. 14.8 miles per hour is 23,68. I usually do 20 when I move in the city because I don't want to sweat and I don't see many bikers going faster than me. Maybe…

Averages are pretty useless without standard deviation.

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#86

Post by untog »

coldpie wrote: post #68
landhar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither the biker nor the driver in the OP's post are in the wrong In the OP's situation, the drivers that exhibit aggressive and dangerous behavior are clearly in the wrong. You could argue that their frustration is understandable, but their behavior is certainly wrong.

So is the guy who steals an unlocked bike. What are you going to do? You're going to not create that situation in the first place. You're going to use a bike lock. "Share the road" is a dumb solution, as evidenced by the OP. It simply does not work . Find another solution.

To be clear: you think that someone stealing an unlocked bike is not "in the wrong"?

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#87

Post by coldpie »

ehnto wrote: post #80
coldpie wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty frustrating to be forced to go 10 MPH on a 30 MPH road. The roads also aren't designed for traffic to go 20 MPH slower than it ought to be, traffic starts to build up, causing more delays and frustration. I think we should be more accommodating of bikers, but asking them to share the road and be treated the same as cars is not the answer.

We need to figure out a harmonious scenario, sharing the road is absolutely the answer right now because the road is all we have to work with at the moment. In a perfect for me world the CBD would have zero cars and everyone would be on bikes, foot or mobility devices after they parked on the CBD fringe carparks or caught public transport in. That will never happen. So the next best step for me is dedicated bike lane…

I actually take the bus most places, I only drive once or twice a week, to the grocery store or so. I have no real skin in this game. In my experience, and in the OP's experience, "share the road" is a dumb, dangerous solution that leaves everyone unhappy. Bikers should refuse to put up with it. Demand real lanes.

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#88

Post by TulliusCicero »

justinph wrote: post #56
TulliusCicero wrote: post #11

Easily the biggest problem in the US with biking is that the infrastructure is, nearly without exception, absolutely atrocious. Nobody would accept having only 'painted walk lanes' on busy streets to get around, much less having them appear and disappear from the road seemingly at random, and yet that's the default state of bike lanes in nearly all US cities. If biking had as much infrastructure as even walking -- me…

Minneapolis, MN is one of the exceptions. The city has invested in good bike lanes and as a result, people do bike in big numbers. Some folks bike year round, even when the temperature is well below freezing. The city benefited greatly from some disused rail right-of-ways and turned them into completely separated bike highways. Many of the on-street bikeways that have been set up use plastic divider posts to signal t…

The thing is though, even for Minneapolis, the total length of bike lanes/paths amounts to what, maybe 5% of the total length of sidewalks/walking paths? (spitballing here looking at Google Maps)

Which just strengthens my point: even quite modest efforts can result in big biking gains. And that's in Minneapolis, who nobody is going to accuse of having great weather for biking.

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#89

Post by nerdshoe »

pmontra wrote: post #65
zwp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> i milanesi hanno percorso in media 18,6 miglia > in bici per andare al lavoro... > velocità media a Milano 14,8 miglia all’ora "The Milanese cyclist averages 18.7 miles per day to go to work... at an average speed of 14.8 mph". Is my translation okay? That seems improbable [time & distance, not speed]: the _average_ Milanese cyclo-commuter takes over an hour each way? Currently 36C/97F in Milan. Or is this per week…

That's so weird: nobody uses miles in Italy (or Europe, except the UK). I checked the article and the source is Strava Insight which probably defaults to miles. The journalist copied and pasted without converting the units into something readers would understand. 14.8 miles per hour is 23,68. I usually do 20 when I move in the city because I don't want to sweat and I don't see many bikers going faster than me. Maybe…

I would never log my daily 3km ride to work in Strava, and I've had it count my after work singletrack romps as commutes. How strava thinks it can be a good source of commuter data is beyond me.

Re: Pop-up bike lanes show that demand exists

#90

Post by TulliusCicero »

coldpie wrote: post #66
sidlls wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have more sympathy for your position if auto drivers didn't seem to think they owned the road, margins, turn lanes and basically anything else that isn't a building. Shared space doesn't mean "shared with other auto drivers only."

Okay, so why doesn't it work? You can complain about drivers all you like, but fundamentally car traffic and bike traffic are incompatible. You can't expect a driver traveling at 30 MPH on a 30 MPH road to suddenly and calmly accept that they are now traveling 10 MPH because of the guy in front of them. Swap the biker for a driver going 20 MPH under the speed limit and you're looking at a road rage situation. Sharing…

If the road/street is wide enough then there should be separated bike paths. If the road is narrow then the speed limit should probably be lower anyway.
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