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A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

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Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#21

Post by lr4444lr »

fredley wrote: post #13
kingkawn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straight up exploitation of people during their most vulnerable moments.

The free market is a poor model for providing healthcare. In an ideal free market, market forces work to find the optimum price for a product, depending on how much it costs to create the product, and how much people are willing to pay for it. In healthcare, though, how much people are willing to pay for a product is anything , if it's the one thing they need to stay alive, or to reduce chronic pain, etc.

Health care is a free market? Where?

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#22

Post by kalleboo »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #20
fredley wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market is a poor model for providing healthcare. In an ideal free market, market forces work to find the optimum price for a product, depending on how much it costs to create the product, and how much people are willing to pay for it. In healthcare, though, how much people are willing to pay for a product is anything , if it's the one thing they need to stay alive, or to reduce chronic pain, etc.

> The free market is a poor model for providing healthcare. No; a free market has been _proved_ to be good at providing healthcare in the US. What you folks have now is an utterly corrupt cartel.

I feel like I'm walking into a trap now, but when was that proven?

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#23

Post by Simulacra »

I wonder if unlimited consumption because it's unlimited is more of an American phenomenon. Everything from buffets to unlimited mobile useage, we seem to really love unlimited and we use it pretty aggressively when we can. I wonder why this clinic did not put some controls on things; please correct me I did not see that in the article.

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#24

Post by alkonaut »

> "some health care analysts are questioning whether the approach to medical care is valid and viable."

Perhaps just stop trying to figure this out from scratch, look at any of N countries where healthcare is just a solved background issue?

Yes there are issues with people overusing services that don't have an associated cost for usage, and many similar issues.

But every damn country in the world has been adjusting the parameters of healthcare such as per-visit costs, healtcare budgets vs. queue time, expensive treatments vs death-panels etc for usually at least half a century now. These are solved problems.

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#25

Post by timthelion »

Meanwhile in the Czech Republic, for caa 50$ a month (for a person making minimum wage, it's double that for median wage workers) there is no copay on anything and the insurance covers everything including sex change surgery (but not facelifts and dental)...

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#26

Post by timthelion »

bluecalm wrote: post #18
fredley wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market is a poor model for providing healthcare. In an ideal free market, market forces work to find the optimum price for a product, depending on how much it costs to create the product, and how much people are willing to pay for it. In healthcare, though, how much people are willing to pay for a product is anything , if it's the one thing they need to stay alive, or to reduce chronic pain, etc.

People are willing to pay anything for food or clothes as well. Still, free (well, at least way more free than in case of healthcare) market works decently, at least when it comes to providing cheap and decent food options. The problem with healthcare is the opposite: there is no free market and it's impossible to compete without huge investment and even then it's sometimes still impossible (patents, long approval pe…

When I'm hungry, I'm still able to visit multiple restaurants/ stores to compare prices. But when I'm having a heart attack, do I really have the option to shop around?

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#27

Post by dr_ »

The affordable care act has enrolled millions on to some kind of health insurance plan. Even if you are stuck with a high deductible plan, oftentimes that annual check up (preventive care) is fully covered without requiring a deductible payment. And, of course, if you are on Medicaid - you have Medicaid.

If you are relatively young and/or healthy, that's all you would really need.

As a result, their patient population likely gradually dwindled.

I was a proponent of dpc at one point but, now enrolled in a high deductible plan myself, i don't see as much need for it personally. I'd rather take the money and throw it into my health savings account and use it when i need to.

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#28

Post by fennecfoxen »

timthelion wrote: post #26
bluecalm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are willing to pay anything for food or clothes as well. Still, free (well, at least way more free than in case of healthcare) market works decently, at least when it comes to providing cheap and decent food options. The problem with healthcare is the opposite: there is no free market and it's impossible to compete without huge investment and even then it's sometimes still impossible (patents, long approval pe…

When I'm hungry, I'm still able to visit multiple restaurants/ stores to compare prices. But when I'm having a heart attack, do I really have the option to shop around?

1. What percentage of your health issues are "emergency, heart attack RIGHT NOW"-class issues? What percentage of health care spending overall are these issues?

2. Have you or someone you know in the United States ever "shopped around" or otherwise prepared in advance for an emergency through the provision of, say, catastrophic health care insurance, which promises to pay for emergency room visits? (Employer coverage can count here.)

To the extent that (1) is a small number, this question is a non sequitor. To the extent that (2) is large, even that small number is further mitigated.

There are lots of arguments about why it might be better to structure health care as a centrally-planned activity instead of a market-based activity. This isn't one of the good ones.

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#29

Post by brightball »

kingkawn wrote: post #12
oldandtired wrote: post #9

A former travelling companion (on a long distance train trip) moved from Head of R&D for an advertising agency into working in the medical technology industry. After six months or so, he returned to his former job of head of R&D at the advertising agency. When quizzed by the staff at the advertising agency as to why he came back to such a corrupt industry. His comment was that advertising were little children in term…

Straight up exploitation of people during their most vulnerable moments.

It's not. People don't see the prices. It's whatever the insurance company can be convinced to pay. People don't get to pick their insurance plan either because it's locked into corporate contracts for the employees (for most people). This model happens because the government allows companies to tax deduct the cost of health insurance as a benefit but not individuals...which happened from union demands.

When people are totally removed from the cost, people aren't being exploited. Removing people from the cost increases the cost.

Re: A Pioneer in 'Flat-Fee Primary Care' Had to Close Its Clinics

#30

Post by douche »

oldandtired wrote: post #9

A former travelling companion (on a long distance train trip) moved from Head of R&D for an advertising agency into working in the medical technology industry. After six months or so, he returned to his former job of head of R&D at the advertising agency. When quizzed by the staff at the advertising agency as to why he came back to such a corrupt industry. His comment was that advertising were little children in term…

There's also a lot of stupid shit that you need to have a prescription for that you ought to just be able to go out and buy. Case in point, my dad has a CPAP machine for sleep apnea, and it stopped working a few months ago. You'd think something that is conceptually similar to a vacuum cleaner operating in reverse with a mask on the end would be something that you could just go find on Amazon and have shipped to you in two days, but no, you have to do the dance of the different doctors first, then wait more weeks for it to be shipped, then wait even longer for them to schedule an appointment to pick up the damned thing. It's completely absurd.
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