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Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

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Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#111
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, what makes you think it was ever not this way? I recently reread the Isaacson Ben Franklin biography and one thing which struck me was how much time he put into crafting his public persona. The comment up this thread holds true: human attention is not evenly distributed. That doesn't mean, however, that there's an imperative to "network" or build a "personal brand" – plenty of people gain a deep sati…

Maybe I'm seeing the past through rose-colored glasses, but it seems there was once a time in Silicon Valley when you could make it big as a pure technologist and not have to always be marketing and selling yourself. Maybe I'm just fooling myself.

I haven't been around here very long so I defer to your memories :) But my suspicion is that if it's not the technologist marketing herself, then someone else is marketing her. There's almost always more to these things than meets the eye.

In a valley of smart and motivated people, discoverability will always be a challenge...though I don't doubt it's much more competitive now than ever.

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#112
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Media coverage and popularity always works this way. I'm not sure why so many people perpetually can't wrap their head around it. There have been endless comments online where people are offended or surprised that x person is getting attention, but they are just like these other people who are just as good. But obviously there's more to drawing people's attention than the individual skill or a comparable position at…

> I'm not sure why so many people perpetually can't wrap their head around it. The really question is, should we (as thoughtful human being as we consider ourselves to be) bother to question the trend (Which you are surprised that people are doing)? Or silently accept it?

If we're going to bother questioning trends, shouldn't we be aiming to be questioning in a way that is different from everyone else who has questioned before us? Because, as pointed out by GP, it would appear that previous questioning has failed to have an impact. Just asking the same questions over and over doesn't get us anywhere.

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#113
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are much better standard ways to phrase this and that's precisely why you almost never see it put that way. If for no other reason than that if hiring high-profile talent is something you need to do more than once, you don't want to be publicly suggesting it's somehow their fault when they leave.

I didn't take it this way at all. Why can't "he's not the right fit" mean exactly that? People can be brilliant but just not right fit the operating processes and culture at a company. I didn't really read anything negative into it from either side.

Sure, you didn't but as you can see in this thread, it's trivially interpretable in lots of other ways. Which is exactly why it is usually not put that way. This doesn't seem like a complicated thing at all.

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#114
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touched on a much wider human phenomenon: attention isn't evenly distributed. The media isn't pushed to report in proportion to an individual's impact. It's guided by trends, aka what people want to read. AI is hot. So therefore there is a huge spotlight on all angles there. You can argue whether that is actually fair (personally, I do think AI is a high beta field). Topics that don't fall under this are regarded…

Media coverage and popularity always works this way. I'm not sure why so many people perpetually can't wrap their head around it. There have been endless comments online where people are offended or surprised that x person is getting attention, but they are just like these other people who are just as good. But obviously there's more to drawing people's attention than the individual skill or a comparable position at…

> Media coverage and popularity always works this way. I'm not sure why so many people perpetually can't wrap their head around it.

It probably wouldn't work this way if people could wrap their heads around it.

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#115

Anyone have any insight into what the top ML people are being paid right now?

500k+ for someone with a lot of experience. 300k+ for a new hire ML/CV/NLP PhD with some relevant experience. 150k+ for a new hire ML/CV/NLP MS with little to no experience We were working with a very expert ML contractor that is doing 800k on his own from pop-up projects.

Are these numbers for real, and are these all Bay Area? I'm further North and pull no where near these numbers as an ML PhD with a lot of experience now in the tech industry. Have I goofed on all negotiations?

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why so many people perpetually can't wrap their head around it. The really question is, should we (as thoughtful human being as we consider ourselves to be) bother to question the trend (Which you are surprised that people are doing)? Or silently accept it?

If we're going to bother questioning trends, shouldn't we be aiming to be questioning in a way that is different from everyone else who has questioned before us? Because, as pointed out by GP, it would appear that previous questioning has failed to have an impact. Just asking the same questions over and over doesn't get us anywhere.

>If we're going to bother questioning trends, shouldn't we be aiming to be questioning in a way that is different from everyone else who has questioned before us?

That would be nice.

> it would appear that previous questioning has failed to have an impact.

Just because something does not cause a change, does not mean it does not have an impact. Maybe, the impact is that it is keeping things from getting worse...In this case, question like these may help to balance the influence of "trends" and helps us to maintain perspective...

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#117
What this really reflects is that Tesla has painted itself into a corner. They've shipped vehicles with a weak sensor suite that's claimed to be sufficient to support self-driving, leaving the software for later. Tesla, unlike everybody else who's serious, doesn't have a LIDAR.

Now, it's "later", their software demos are about where Google was in 2010, and Tesla has a big problem. This is a really hard problem to do with cameras alone. Deep learning is useful, but it's not magic, and it's not strong AI. No wonder their head of automatic driving quit. Karpathy may bail in a few months, once he realizes he's joined a death march.

If anything, Tesla should have learned by now that you don't want to need to recognize objects to avoid them. The Mobileye system works that way, being very focused on identifying moving cars, pedestrians, and bicycles. It's led to at least four high speed crashes with stationary objects it didn't identify as obstacles. This is pathetic. We had avoidance of big stationary objects working in the DARPA Grand Challenge back in 2005.

With a good LIDAR, you get a point cloud. This tells you where there's something. Maybe you can identify some of the "somethings", but if there's an unidentified object out there, you know it's there. The planner can plot a course that stays on the road surface and doesn't hit anything. Object recognition is mostly for identifying other road users and trying to predict their behavior.

Compare Chris Urmson's talk and videos at SXSW 2016 [1] with Tesla's demo videos from last month.[2] Notice how aware the Google/Waymo vehicle is of what other road users are doing, and how it has a comprehensive overview of the situation. See Urmson show how it handled encountering unusual situations such as someone in a powered wheelchair chasing a duck with a broom. Note Urmson's detailed analysis of how a Google car scraped the side of a bus at 2MPH while maneuvering around sandbags placed in the parking lane.

Now watch Tesla's sped-up video, slowed down to normal speed. (1/4 speed is about right for viewing.) Tesla wouldn't even detect small sandbags; they don't even see traffic cones. Note how few roadside objects they mark. If it's outside the lines, they just don't care. There's not enough info to take evasive action in an emergency. Or even avoid a pothole.

Prediction: 2020 will be the year the big players have self-driving. It will use LIDAR, cameras, and radars. Continental will have a good low-cost LIDAR using the technology from Advanced Scientific Concepts at an affordable price point.

Tesla will try to ship a self-driving system before that while trying to avoid financial responsibility for crashes. People will die because of this.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-rK8V-rik [2] https://player.vimeo.com/video/192179727

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#118
post #73
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is he throwing them under the bus? He said it turns out he didn't fit in well at Tesla. That's just being honest. If the alternative is phony politeness and masking reality under a guise of everything went great then I prefer this approach. This is a great aspect of the software industry IMO. And if you want to get lots of job offers then build some great OSS projects like this guy. It's a great way to demonstrat…

I don't know, to me the statement begs the question "So why wasn't it a great fit?". People are going to speculate regardless of an announcement from you, if it were me I would prefer to just keep my head low and let those who really care to know/I care to tell ask me (or Tesla) personally without a bunch of unneeded commentators jumping in and potentially putting negative connotations in my mouth. But I hadn't seen…

There are thousands of ecological niches. I'm the kind of programmer who takes time off to make gnocchi and think shallow thoughts about quantum physics. Not every company is into that. Some are. It's not a judgement against anyone, it's just a question of fit.

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#119
post #29

Anyone have any insight into what the top ML people are being paid right now?

The equity packages tend to be in the tens of millions for a 4-year vest. Source: I am a manager who has given offers to top-tier ML experts.

If you are a hiring manager for top-tier ML experts, why would you be trying to inflate market value with outrageous claims?

Re: Tesla hires Andrej Karpathy

#120
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The equity packages tend to be in the tens of millions for a 4-year vest. Source: I am a manager who has given offers to top-tier ML experts.

If you are a hiring manager for top-tier ML experts, why would you be trying to inflate market value with outrageous claims?

I guarantee you that my comments here will not influence the market rate for top-tier ML experts.
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