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Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

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Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#271

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

lovemenot wrote: post #256
erikpukinskis wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it absolves the forward operator of everything and blames the rearward operator for everything. You often can't pass another motorist without going into the oncoming lane either. The fundamental question is whether you see the road as a way for all people, or if you see it as primarily a resource for the wealthy, with the poor allowed provisional access based on their degree of disturbance to the flow of money. Y…

I agree with your reasoning about preferential road usage, but would have preferred it without the economic diatribe. Two unpowered wheels does not necessarily imply poorer than four powered wheels. Relative wealth is an irrelevance to your main argument about preferential speed.

I would also bet, the the average car driver on a road is less rich than the average bike rider on a road.

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#272

Post by lucidguppy »

ocschwar wrote: post #225
raidoxim wrote: post #92

I'm Dutch, but think we tend to underestimate the impact of the flatness of our country, and the size of other countries especially the States. I've cycled on my normal 7-gear bicycle (and that might be considered fancy) from Newcastle to Carlisle. Which is quite flat. I had to walk so much up hill as it was utterly impossible to climb 40 meters. In the Netherlands quite a lot of people do live in a 50 km radius of t…

I live in Boston, which is one of the most bikefriendly cities in the US, along with Portland, OR and Davis, CA. All three are pretty darn hilly, and that's not considered a problem. When I visited Amsterdam, I was at times challenged by sudden headwinds, and found them more of a problem than the hills I climb in Boston (which, after all, are never a surprise.)

A modest electric hub motor should help on the hills.

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#273

Post by Futurebot »

avar wrote: post #47

> If anything, having a tatty, battered old > bike affords more status as it attests to > a long and lasting love. As an Amsterdam resident: What a romantic characterization of our high crime rates! Yes, the reason I still ride a shitty old beater of a bike is definitely my long lasting love for that piece of shit, it's not because I know that if I buy anything fancy I'm going to have to never take my eyes off of it,…

Is something preventing foldable bikes (that can be taken indoors) from catching on there?

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#274

Post by ramy_d »

askvictor wrote: post #209
rollingpebbles wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be vinyl wrap for bikes that provides a paintable, duct-tapeable substrain for camo tape and radioactive fuchsia and orange also camo ejaculation. Flat (no shine) paint makes a bike even less attractive. PS: I had a old/ugly bike that I had for 16 years in Davis, CA that I still locked and it was stolen from an apt complex the one and only time I forgot to lock it. There are thieves whom ride around in c…

Kind of surprised that bike manufacturers don't offer new bikes painted to look old and crappy, as an option, or as an after market service

Like jeans!

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#275

Post by dmoy »

Futurebot wrote: post #273
avar wrote: post #47

> If anything, having a tatty, battered old > bike affords more status as it attests to > a long and lasting love. As an Amsterdam resident: What a romantic characterization of our high crime rates! Yes, the reason I still ride a shitty old beater of a bike is definitely my long lasting love for that piece of shit, it's not because I know that if I buy anything fancy I'm going to have to never take my eyes off of it,…

Is something preventing foldable bikes (that can be taken indoors) from catching on there?

You can't carry a foldable bike inside everywhere you go...

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#276

Post by dghughes »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #158
dghughes wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bike infrastructure in most countries is generally very bad compared to car infrastructure... My city just created a law that motorists who don't leave a 1m gap between their vehicle and bike will be fined. The problem is the "bike lane" is just a picture of a bike on what used to be the paved shoulder, the 30cm wide paved shoulder. And the biked lane can narrow down to nothing in some places. And it often includes…

No, it absolves the forward operator of everything and blames the rearward operator for everything. You often can't pass another motorist without going into the oncoming lane either. The fundamental question is whether you see the road as a way for all people, or if you see it as primarily a resource for the wealthy, with the poor allowed provisional access based on their degree of disturbance to the flow of money. Y…

Wealthy? I don't see how that got into the discussion. In the winter when it's -20C and snowing here nobody bikes.

Actually no my concern is there is no room! The width of the road is barely enough for one vehicle leaving maybe 30cm on either side. Making a law to demand 1m (100cm) separation seems to ignore reality, and math.

Also, I could be ahead of a bicyclist and he can overtake me but I am now required by law to make room as he overtakes to my right. Even if there is a vehicle to my left I have to move over or be fined.

I understand the purpose of the law but it is poorly written.

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#277

Post by InitialLastName »

Mz wrote: post #188
InitialLastName wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a sibling of yours pointed out, the presence of affluent peers makes a big difference.

Look, I know you don't know me as some kind of education expert, but I homeschooled my gifted-learning disabled sons for a lot of years and I was Director of Community Life at TAGFAM for a brief period and I know whereof I speak here. Those peers are almost certainly not just affluent, they are almost certainly also well read, well spoken and well educated. Money easily grows out of being well educated, assuming ther…

Really not trying to disparage you, but I think there's room to allow the cause and effect to go in both directions.

Since parental involvement is a really good proxy for wealth, and, as you point out, parental involvement correlates strongly with educational outcomes, wealthy children tend to have better educational outcomes.

However (and take it from a gifted and learning disabled person) the presence of better-educated (and more academically invested) students in a classroom can be a rising tide that brings up the more marginal students.

Overall, I don't think we actually disagree. Education is well-correlated with wealth. Parental involvement (given that parents who are able to be involved are more likely to be able to do that and stay financially functional) effectively "counts" as money spent on education, especially since it indirectly helps the entire cohort.

It takes a village.

Sidenote: > assuming there aren't other barriers to accomplishment

In my neck of the world, poverty counts.

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#278

Post by Mz »

InitialLastName wrote: post #277
Mz wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I know you don't know me as some kind of education expert, but I homeschooled my gifted-learning disabled sons for a lot of years and I was Director of Community Life at TAGFAM for a brief period and I know whereof I speak here. Those peers are almost certainly not just affluent, they are almost certainly also well read, well spoken and well educated. Money easily grows out of being well educated, assuming ther…

Really not trying to disparage you, but I think there's room to allow the cause and effect to go in both directions. Since parental involvement is a really good proxy for wealth, and, as you point out, parental involvement correlates strongly with educational outcomes, wealthy children tend to have better educational outcomes. However (and take it from a gifted and learning disabled person) the presence of better-edu…

Actually, parental involvement tends to correlate to the middle class. Some studies show there is as much neglect and drug abuse in upper class neighborhoods as in the ghetto. Two career couples do not necessarily do a good a job of finding time for the kids. It is solidly middle class families that tend to do a good job of covering essentials while also having time for the family.

It is more complicated than that. Some other factors are: Schools in "college towns" tend to be better and "neighborhood schools" where less than 5% of the kids are bussed in and the rest live in walking distance also do better than average.

I am not saying poverty is not a problem. I am saying that spending per capita on students in public schools does not have a good track record for correlating well to student outcomes.

Also, if you look at "The Tipping Point," it indicates that poor neighborhoods where middle class and better people are a certain percentage of the population fair much, much better than poor neighborhoods where those people drop below a certain percentage of the population. The lack of adequate "wisdom" being readily available seems to do more harm than lack of money per se. When it falls below a certain threshold, things rapidly come unraveled and you see crime and other problems shoot through the roof.

We are not doing such a great job of creating community in the world today.

I am not saying money doesn't matter. But I do believe that there are a lot of things that matter more and that cannot be solve by simply throwing money at the problem. Hopefully, that makes more sense.

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#279

Post by jdavis703 »

gutnor wrote: post #235
cdnsteve wrote: post #84

Just came back from a week in Netherlands and stayed in Amsterdam. What a cool place to hang out and take in the sights. Cycling there is huge indeed. The big difference I noticed from Canada was the dedicated infrastructure they have in place. Dedicated cycling lanes everywhere, it's a proper form of transportation. As a tourist, this was weird, I nearly got mowed down a few times but because I was in the wrong and…

> As a tourist, this was weird, I nearly got mowed down a few times but because I was in the wrong and not paying attention. You quickly adapt and realized bike lanes are just as important to watch out for as vehicle lanes. You can also get mowed down in pedestrian area, on the pavement by impatient cyclist that don't like traffic jams and custom courtesy like stopping to let you cross a zebra crossing is non-existen…

It seems like one could solve this problem by also hopping on a bike.

Re: Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

#280

Post by ghaff »

InitialLastName wrote: post #140
ashark wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, more to the point they took their bound-to-be-good-students-on-average children to the suburbs. If you do it right ( i.e. you don't make a bad choice and get ripped off) you're buying your kids' peers more than anything else by paying to live in more affluent districts or (more directly) by paying private school tuition. This is why pouring money into poor districts rarely does much to educational quality—the m…

That's a well-put perspective. ... however... I can't even picture the political shitstorm that would happen if someone suggested (openly) segregating schools by parental income and education level.

There are competitive admission public high schools in some cities but this isn't a very common concept.
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