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Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#261

Post by Corrado »

vbernat wrote: post #243
pwdisswordfish wrote: post #89

HEADLINE: Easier way to create local packages DESCRIPTION: My first distro was Debian. Then, for a while, I used Arch. But it kept irritating me with its total disregard for backwards-compatibility (symlinking /usr/bin/python to python3), coarse-grained packages (want to install QEMU PPC without pulling in every other architecture as well? too bad!), lack of debug packages (good luck rebuilding WebKit just to get sta…

Creating your own packages with Debian tools is easier now than ever. Unfortunately, the documentation may be lagging a bit and will also focus of making state-of-the-art packages. Last year, I have written some examples on how to do simple packages while still leveraging Debian tools: https://vincent.bernat.im/en/blog/2016-pragmatic-debian-pack... Also, automatic package generation for many languages already providi…

Yes, I think documentation is part of the problem. When I was a heavy Debian user several years ago I tried to create my own packages but failed. The problem was that the documentation was too numerous to find anything, especially the current way to build packages. Every single resource I tried had 2-3 different ways to build packages and it was difficult|impossible to tell which one was the "recommended" way. I ended up not creating any packages and moving on to another distro. :(

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#262

Post by bigon »

omginternets wrote: post #246
bigon wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the docker policy is RHEL/Fedora centric and is not upstreamed in the refpolicy AFAIK

We're touching on the limits of my understanding. Could you please elaborate?

SELinux is made of 3 things

- The kernel doing the permissions check (called object manager) - The policy telling the kernel what is allowed or not - Some userspace tools and libraries to load and manipulate the policy and the state of SELinux

The kernel and the userspace tools are almost the same across all distributions (Well Fedora/RHEL are carrying some patches).

But for the policy it's a different story. RHEL/Fedora have a gigantic patch applied to the refpolicy (reference policy developed by the SELinux upstream).

The policy allowing docker to work has not been upstreamed so it's not that easy for other distributions to use it

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#263

Post by johnbrodie »

Karellen wrote: post #237
jlgaddis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually tried unstable? Granted, I haven't used it for a few years now (the only Debian boxes I have today are servers running stable), but "unstable" was actually quite reliable. Yes, it did break occasionally (mostly just minor issues with package dependencies) but those were usually easy fixes and "unstable" was actually quite usable as an everyday, desktop Linux. If you haven't tried it, give it a shot.…

I used a daily-updated unstable for a while, and every so often, like once per 18 months to 2 years or so, I'd hit an early boot (grub/initramfs) bug that rendered my system unbootable. Early boot is dark magic to me, and without internet access (because my system wouldn't boot) it would take me a few hours to fix. By the time I did, someone else had filed an RC bug report which would have prevented that package from…

I've been running unstable for years, and have had what you mention happen exactly once. If you're on unstable, use apt-listbugs and don't update every day, and _generally_ you'll be fine. Don't use giant DE's like KDE that go through a lot of transitions and you'll be even better off.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#264

Post by rlpb »

Twirrim wrote: post #247
rlpb wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can configure this behaviour today. Search for "policy-rc.d". IMHO, it's a bug in configuration management tools that they do not arrange this by default.

deb/dpkg/apt is the only one I've seen which does this. All other distributions go for install only. Starting on install is more intuitive for people new to linux, but it's bad as an overall practice.

I think Debian's rationale is that if a sysadmin interactively installs a package, then that sysadmin does so to get its primary service (if any) running, so packages should arrange this by default.

> but it's bad as an overall practice.

I agree with you, but only in the case of non-interactive use. Different use cases demand different defaults. Tooling should be able to make the appropriate distinction automatically. Currently, the tooling does not, but that (IMHO) is a design flaw in the tooling, which Debian does not produce.

In the interactive case, I'm torn, but I do see the logic.

In the general case, then, I maintain that tooling should use policy-rc.d to adjust the default as necessary, and that failure to do so is in the tooling, not in Debian.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#265

Post by lscotte »

heftysync wrote: post #124

HEADLINE: First class ZFS install support on Live CD. DESCRIPTION: The license conflict between the open source ZFS and open source Linux kernel mean ZFS needs to be in contrib. Unlike a lot of other packages in contrib, ZFS doesn't rely on any non-free software. It just can't be in Debian main because of the conflict of licenses. However, it would be nice if there was a way to have a more official path to ZFS on roo…

Thirded! I've been building out all my Debian boxes with ZFS root (and everywhere) for a year or more. Not only does this require installing via debootstrap, but there are some subtle things that have to be done just so or the system won't boot. Stretch improves this over Jessie, but it's still clearly not a first order citizen.

Like with non-free firmware, and other such things, I get the licensing and taint issues, but it would be good to see this evolve and be supported in the installer, someday, if only on a "forked" installer like with non-free firmware.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#266

Post by keithpeter »

debianoffline wrote: post #239
lamby wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without an Internet connection, or with a slow and expensive connection Could you elaborate more on your particular use-case? Would be interested if there were also compromise solutions such as smarter binary diffs, etc.

The internet is often prohibitively expensive for a small minority of users. But those users often have infrequent access to a high-bandwidth connection. And of course, odds are that they won't be reading this thread! I've often been in this situation myself.

What do you think of content rich distros like Endless OS (Linux aimed at end users with a lot of offline content)?

I'm thinking of ditching the phone line and scavenging in local cafes/public buildings, so yes, weekly access to reasonable speed connection. Tethered mobile connection for emergency email/rdp access.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#267

Post by johntadd »

- HEADLINE: Kernel and Desktop

- DESCRIPTION: This request might not be considered in a short term or never be considered, but personally I hope that can be done.

For Desktop, I wish there exists Debian defined environment or interfaces which transparently integrates with desktop environment like power manager. So when switching between different, for instance, desktop environment or window manager, I don't need to tune for specific setting (particularly non-Debian way) in order to get it work.

For Kernel, I would like to see integration with seL4.

- ROLE/AFFILIATION: Software Engineer

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#268

Post by feikname »

lamby wrote: post #23
feikname wrote: post #12

HEADLINE WiFi-direct GUI DESCRIPTION Using WiFi direct on most debian-based distros is a hassle, requiring a lot of manual terminal work. A GUI in the network section for WiFi Direct would make connections easier and faster.

Is there an existing such feature in other distributions out of interest?

Sorry for the late reply.

If you consider Android to be a GNU/Linux distro, then Android 4.x+ could be a reference for this.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#269

Post by mattadams »

falcolas wrote: post #117
ZenoArrow wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you dislike about systemd? Do you disagree with the ideas behind it, or is your discontentment more about the specific implementation of those ideas? Can you give examples?

Not the OP, but: - It's effectively a black box that nobody but the systemd team really understands; and the response by said team to problems with systemd too often defaults to "you're doing it wrong" - Systemd is not just an init system, it's a message bus, authentication system, logging system, container management system, xinitd system, and any other number of highly coupled systems. - Service startup order can s…

I have to second this. I am a long-time Linux user, having run Debian since the late 90s and Slackware since 1993 but systemd put me over the edge. Things that worked and were easy to figure out in the previous init system just stopped working under systemd. It is a brutally complicated init that didn't add anything to my experience and pushed me out of Debian and into FreeBSD where things still have sane defaults. I like to get my work done instead of messing around with an init system that refuses to let me do even the most basic things.

Not all new things are great and I think Debian made a mistake not supporting a traditional init system alongside systemd or at least until the kinks could be worked out.

Re: Ask HN: What do you want to see in Debian 10 (“buster”)?

#270

Post by dustinkirkland »

sandGorgon wrote: post #98

HEADLINE: a merger of flatpkg and snap DESCRIPTION: a consensus on the next generation of package management. Please. We have had decades of fragmentation (not to mention duplicated innovation) around the RPM vs DEB ecosystem. Which is why it is still hard for beginners to want to use Linux - try explaining to anyone who comes from a Mac about rpm vs deb vs whatever else. Which is why they would pay for the mac rathe…

Snapd is actually part of Debian 9 (Stretch), which means that Snap packages are also supported on Debian, as well as Ubuntu, Fedora, SUSE, CentOS, Gentoo, Yocto, Arch, etc.

Flatpak exists for one and only one reason -- because Red Hat, Inc. refuses to work with technology of any kind led by Canonical, period.

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