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Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

nationalgeographic.com

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Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#51

Post by nonbel »

wavefunction wrote: post #45
nonbel wrote: post #30

I've found the coverage of this Larsen C rift to be disquieting since I read that the people studying it don't link the event to climate change: >"The team say they have no evidence to link the growth of this rift, and the eventual calving, to climate change." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170602112819.h... It seems that everyone in the media or commenting on the internet suddenly knows better than th…

All they said was that they don't have evidence for a link, which may be because there is no link, there is a link but they haven't found the evidence yet, or a link was never within the scope of their study. You're basically claiming they found evidence disproving a link with the "don't link the event to climate change."

>'You're basically claiming they found evidence disproving a link with the "don't link the event to climate change."'

No I am not. But by default I would assume all such events (really every event on earth) are somehow linked to climate change... it is exceptional to me that they claim to have no evidence for this.

Edit: Isn't it interesting that everyone except them (who are the apparent experts here) seems to have no problem linking it with climate change, including me?

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#52

Post by DennisP »

chronic7ui wrote: post #14
vocatus_gate wrote: post #3

I just came back from 7 months on one of the U.S. research stations, doing network engineering and glacier search and rescue. It was pretty interesting to see how fast the glacier face the station was near was retreating each year. edit: did an AMA while there that hit the reddit front page https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/5656e1/iama_i_dont_ha...

Is Antarctica melting? Yes. Is it bad? Yes. Are humans accelerating​ it? Yes. Is it bad for my kids and future generations? Yes. Does that mean I'm going to switch to an EV, start taking public transportation in Mountain View, or stop using disposable bags at While Foods? No. Scientists have a long way to convince the billions of people on Earth like me before anyone is going to meaningfully reduce climate change.

It's the world's biggest public goods problem. Let's say for the sake of argument that fixing global warming were worth $10K to you. You still don't contribute because it wouldn't help; the marginal improvement to the environment from your little personal contribution wouldn't make any significant difference to your life. It'd certainly be far less than $10K of benefit.

So it's entirely rational to skip the actions you describe. But that's true for everyone. We'd all be happier if everybody contributed, but for each of us, we're better off not contributing, whether other people contribute or not. So nobody does much and we all end up worse off.

Problems like this crop up all the time and we have a way of dealing with them. Instead of deciding whether we'll personally contribute, we vote on whether we'll all contribute.

So if you really believe your first four statements, maybe you could consider voting for politicians who support a price on carbon.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#53

Post by DennisP »

nonbel wrote: post #51
wavefunction wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they said was that they don't have evidence for a link, which may be because there is no link, there is a link but they haven't found the evidence yet, or a link was never within the scope of their study. You're basically claiming they found evidence disproving a link with the "don't link the event to climate change."

>'You're basically claiming they found evidence disproving a link with the "don't link the event to climate change."' No I am not. But by default I would assume all such events (really every event on earth) are somehow linked to climate change... it is exceptional to me that they claim to have no evidence for this. Edit: Isn't it interesting that everyone except them (who are the apparent experts here) seems to have…

This comes up a lot in climate discussions. There's a record hurricane or heat wave, but these things happen randomly so there's no way to say definitively that one particular event would not have happened without climate change.

But we do know that overall, climate change causes stronger hurricanes and hotter heat waves.

In the same way, we know smoking causes lung cancer, but if you're a smoker who gets lung cancer, nobody can say for sure that the smoking caused it, because some nonsmokers get lung cancer too. They just don't get it as often.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#56

Post by trophycase »

The real problem here is businesses who are causing this are externalizing their costs to everyone else. So I have to buy an expensive EV, I have to willingly pay more for energy, I must willingly inconvenience myself to bring a reusable bag to the grocery store. Until we make those who are causing this pay the real costs, we will never see any meaningful change. The worst part is also that those countries that choose not to have any restrictions will inevitably move ahead, economically, of those that do and slowly weaken those that do have restrictions. The only real solution to this problem is complete collapse or ubiquitous market forces that make the environmental choice also the best fiscal choice.

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#57

Post by bzbarsky »

cmurf wrote: post #42
ftlio wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one name for it. 'I still won't vote for taxes or meaningful legislation on the issue because they're just going to get it wrong anyway.' is the phase's actual name.

We can trace the widespread notions in the Republican party that the government cannot ever do anything correctly, and should be feared when it tries, to this quote: The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. - Ronald Reagan No no, don't believe in auditing, and ethics, and holding officials accountable with voting, and when necessary prosecutions. Just be sca…

That perception is _much_ older than Reagan. Back in 1866 we have:

> No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session.

(Gideon Tucker), and it was hardly a brand-new notion then. The fact is that government, even democratic government, puts its needs and desires first. To the extent that this matches up with the needs and desires of the people it's governing, things are good. To the extent that it doesn't, you get problems. Democracy helps a bit with making things align, but not terribly much. And the more non-local a government is, the less alignment of its needs and desires with the diverse needs and desires of the governed, all else being equal.

This last is why some people advocate for more local government power and less central government power...

Re: Antarctica Is Melting, and Giant Ice Cracks Are Just the Start

#59

Post by prodmerc »

sctb wrote: post #40
prodmerc wrote: post #5

As long as my golf courses in Florida are OK, there is no global warming. A bunch of floating ice can't raise sea levels, since the ice is already there, it's just moving around. It's big ice, yes, but it won't do anything and certainly won't reach the US, hence it will not affect it. Those damn state leaders aligning with the commie Europeans on the issue don't know a thing, they're going rogue. I tell you what, the…

Would you please not post unsubstantive inflammation (aka troll) like this?

Sorry, spent too much time reading Trump.
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