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C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

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Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#111
post #81

Strangely, "lokum" is a Danish synonym for toilet, deriving from the Latin "locus" (place). No other language have this meaning for the word that I know of -- it makes this discussion rather amusing.

"Locus" is sometimes used in German, though it's considered fairly archaic.

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Hershey's chocolate tastes bad, however seeing as all dairy contains butyric acid and thus all milk chocolate: maybe lets not go around trying to draw an equivalence between Hershey's and vomit.

While true, Hershey's contains a lot more . That's why it tastes stronger. Why? We don't know, trade secret, but it's assumed the milk is lipolized somewhere in their process - as that would produce more of the acid.

An industrial chemist giving a public lecture on chocolate production at a UK University informed that the issue was that milk would go bad due to getting hot whilst collected and poor ongoing refrigeration. Thus Hershey was made with spoilt milk, and tasted as it does. When they were able to fix it there was opposition from the customers as they'd grown accustomed to the taste (of spoilt milk). They thus added the flavour back in artificially, and so we have it.

The lecturers handed out a samples bag at the start with all sorts of samples (including new unreleased confections) - they were like "and this is American chocolate" followed closely by wretching and heaving sounds from across the auditorium, we were not warned! Very memorable.

So that is why, according to a production chemist working in chocolate c.1996.

I dare say they don't publicise the origins of the flavour.

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#113
post #82
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burden of proof is on the accuser, no? I used cabal to highlight that C.S. Lewis is hardly unique -- if you think he's a xenophobe I can't imagine what you think of Tolkein or even modern authors like George R. R. Martin.

Well, C.S Lewis was a Christian theologian whose other written works are overtly Christian apologia. Tolkien, on the other hand, was a professor of languages who was fascinated with ancient and constructed languages from a young age. Knowing that, reading the various books it's hard not to believe that the Narnia Chronicles were written partly to promote Christianity, and the Middle-Earth works were written partly to…

Don't you have to be well-versed in Christianity to recognise the allegory? How does that promote Christianity, perhaps to 'reinforce it for those raised as Christians'?

There's no doubting they were written in an overtly Christian context; does the author speak about using the allegory as a means of proselytising? Or, is that conjecture?

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#114
I first encountered Turkish Delight through the Fry's product advertising - a sultry lady scantily dressed, as if from a harem, the product on a silver platter, a Bedouin looking fellow in flowing robes, he cuts the confection with a shining scimitar, "full of Eastern promise". Bleurgh, hated the stuff; enchanted by the advert though.

I can't recall but I don't think I made a connection between that and the book, as a child I just read it as him being offered sweets by a stranger (something we'd been warned of specifically).

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#115
post #88
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, C.S Lewis was a Christian theologian whose other written works are overtly Christian apologia. Tolkien, on the other hand, was a professor of languages who was fascinated with ancient and constructed languages from a young age. Knowing that, reading the various books it's hard not to believe that the Narnia Chronicles were written partly to promote Christianity, and the Middle-Earth works were written partly to…

Sure, I don't disagree. I still don't see evidence for Lewis's plot to poison children against Middle Eastern cultures. Keep in mind Tolkein explicitly describes the dark-skinned, Eastern peoples as being seduced by evil. Does he get a pass for being less overtly religious?

You use words like "plot" and "cabal" to make it sound like its a bizarre conspiracy theory. But Lewis himself have written openly and at length about his use of Christian theology in the stories, and its pretty blatant, veering into preaching in some passages. And it is pretty clear he presents the "middle eastern" culture in a negative light, because they don't embrace "Aslan" but worship a fake God. I don't see what more "evidence" you could want?

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The chocolate is terrible and often is not even chocolate." What do you mean by this? What is your definition of chocolate?

It is a convenient and easy way for the reader to spot the level headed and reasonableness of the commenter. If the chocolate was so terrible, then why is it the most popular chocolate in the UK? Why would Nestlé have bought Cadbury's? OP is just projecting their own irrational hatred for Cadbury's.

> If the chocolate was so terrible, then why is it the most popular chocolate in the UK? Why would Nestlé have bought Cadbury's?

I am not sure the first is a reasonable question considering that popularity and quality hardly ever go hand in hand, especially in a country like the UK. Additionally I assume the second question has nothing to do with the chocolate quality.

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#117
post #105
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burden of proof is on the accuser, no? I used cabal to highlight that C.S. Lewis is hardly unique -- if you think he's a xenophobe I can't imagine what you think of Tolkein or even modern authors like George R. R. Martin.

Just read the books, it should be proof enough for you. While great fantasy, they are also totally blatant in their theological agenda.

A theological agenda does not imply xenophobia. Remember the wording OP used:

> Lewis's attempt at turning thinking, particularly child thinking, against the cultures found in the Middle East

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The chocolate is terrible and often is not even chocolate." What do you mean by this? What is your definition of chocolate?

It is a convenient and easy way for the reader to spot the level headed and reasonableness of the commenter. If the chocolate was so terrible, then why is it the most popular chocolate in the UK? Why would Nestlé have bought Cadbury's? OP is just projecting their own irrational hatred for Cadbury's.

The relationship between popularity and quality (or rather the lack of relationship) is well understood. Cadbury's defined the UK market at one point in history and then basically defined what "chocolate" is for UK people; but it's unanimously reviled in the rest of Europe. It's also the chocolate manufacturer keenest on adding "bad stuff" to its products, among European companies.

It's not about being a snob - Cadbury's is objectively low-quality stuff. It's also very popular in a specific market for historical reasons, which makes it a good commercial proposition. The two concepts are not exclusive.

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#119
post #115
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't disagree. I still don't see evidence for Lewis's plot to poison children against Middle Eastern cultures. Keep in mind Tolkein explicitly describes the dark-skinned, Eastern peoples as being seduced by evil. Does he get a pass for being less overtly religious?

You use words like "plot" and "cabal" to make it sound like its a bizarre conspiracy theory. But Lewis himself have written openly and at length about his use of Christian theology in the stories, and its pretty blatant, veering into preaching in some passages. And it is pretty clear he presents the "middle eastern" culture in a negative light, because they don't embrace "Aslan" but worship a fake God. I don't see wh…

So your argument is that because Lewis was a devout Christian he must have also been a xenophobe? He was also a renowned expert in medeival European history, isn't it more likely that's where the inspiration came from?

Re: C.S. Lewis's Greatest Fiction: Telling Kids They’d Like Turkish Delight (2015)

#120
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, C.S Lewis was a Christian theologian whose other written works are overtly Christian apologia. Tolkien, on the other hand, was a professor of languages who was fascinated with ancient and constructed languages from a young age. Knowing that, reading the various books it's hard not to believe that the Narnia Chronicles were written partly to promote Christianity, and the Middle-Earth works were written partly to…

Don't you have to be well-versed in Christianity to recognise the allegory? How does that promote Christianity, perhaps to 'reinforce it for those raised as Christians'? There's no doubting they were written in an overtly Christian context; does the author speak about using the allegory as a means of proselytising? Or, is that conjecture?

> Don't you have to be well-versed in Christianity to recognise the allegory?

Absolutely not. The books are incredibly in your face, even kids recognize it.

> How does that promote Christianity, perhaps to 'reinforce it for those raised as Christians'?

It is not promote christianity as in telling kids to become christians or much about god. It promotes christian values - how you should behave what you should think about situations. You may read the books or go to sermon and they boil down to pretty much the same thing.

The first, second and third focus of every story is moral lesson you are supposed to take out of it. Any other purpose (story, fun, world building, suspension, whatever) is somewhere after. That is why the books are so popular among christians, imo. If you remove moral teaching, not all that much is left.

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