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America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

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Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#171

Post by AlexandrB »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69
AlexandrB wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read your own damn references [1] before postulating how the poor are poor because they have no self-control and not the other way around: > A 2012 study at the University of Rochester (with a smaller N= 28) altered the experiment by dividing children into two groups: one group was given a broken promise before the marshmallow test was conducted (the unreliable tester group), and the second group had a fulfilled prom…

There are five follow-up studies in the Wikipedia section you cite [1]: A 1998 study "showed that 'preschool children who delayed gratification longer in the self-imposed delay paradigm, were described more than 10 years later by their parents as adolescents who were significantly more competent.'" A 1990 study "showed that the ability to delay gratification also correlated with higher SAT scores." A 2006 study used…

I see a lot of correlations but no causation. In fact my link comments on this as well:

> Prior to the Marshmallow Studies at Stanford, Walter Mischel had shown that the child's belief that the promised delayed rewards would actually be delivered is an important determinant of the choice to delay, but his later experiments did not take this factor into account or control for individual variation in beliefs about reliability when reporting correlations with life successes.

So does poor impulse control cause poverty or does poverty cause poor impulse control?

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#172

Post by lukas099 »

kodablah wrote: post #122
chc wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A pack of cigarettes is one of the most luxurious pleasures available if all you have is $5. There's nothing luxurious about smelling bad and getting a wicked cough. Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. I just ate an orange that cost 50¢ and it was more luxurious than any cigarette I've ever smoked.

> Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. Completely subjective. I'm not sure the purpose of your post. Are you telling everyone what is more luxurious to them or just giving your singular opinion for yourself? Assuming the latter, it appears to add little to the discussion.

The assertion which GP responded to -- that cigarettes are luxurious -- is completely subjective as well.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#173

Post by lukas099 »

wmeredith wrote: post #156
gscott wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In California we have a crisis, not enough people are smoking and paying the taxes. So the cigarette taxes have to be raised again and again then other tax sources have to be found.

That's why you don't use "sin taxes" to do anything but combat "sin". Using taxes like this to pay for things you actually want to keep messes with incentives in an evil way.

And unsustainable way, as higher taxes->fewer consumers->higher taxes->...

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#174

Post by programmarchy »

anovikov wrote: post #79
programmarchy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it's the general normal for people with low IQs, many of whom happen to be poor. However, when a poor person wins the genetic lottery and is born with a high IQ, that's a predictor of moving up a socioeconomic quartile, as well as increased lifespan and lower chance of smoking. Conversely, a child of a rich person that has inherited wealth but regressed to the mean tends to become poorer. It seems that genera…

Sadly, it is an oversimplification. Maybe low IQ means a high chance to get poor, but high IQ doesn't mean a high chance to get rich. There is no IQ band in which you are most likely to earn in a $1M+ a year band, and i know a ton of quite average intelligence guys and girls who make it. If you are smart enough to finish a somewhat better than average college, becoming even smarter doesn't help you much in making mor…

Recent studies [1] have found that genetic markers for intelligence strongly predict adult outcomes, even when controlled for social-class origins.

[1] https://dukespace.lib.duke.edu/dspace/handle/10161/12447

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#175

Post by ErikVandeWater »

gruturo wrote: post #2

This, if correctly publicized, would be the best motivation in getting huge amounts of people to stop. Think of a slogan like "Only the poor still smoke" or "it's what losers do" and how it would impact people. Suddenly you'd be embarrassed of being seen smoking.

Who do you think would think fund the "Only the poor still smoke" campaign? It looks really bad from a PR perspective.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#176

Post by vilmosi »

chc wrote: post #114
protonfish wrote: post #77

There are some lovely comments about here about how the poor are stupid, they deserve it, etc. While discussing this, we should also consider that in situations where there is very little to lose (e.g. going to die soon anyhow, little chance of a successful life) risky behaviors make more strategic sense than if the subject had the promise of better opportunities. Also, the pleasures available to the impoverished are…

> A pack of cigarettes is one of the most luxurious pleasures available if all you have is $5. There's nothing luxurious about smelling bad and getting a wicked cough. Unless you're already addicted, nearly anything under $5 is more luxurious than a cigarette. I just ate an orange that cost 50¢ and it was more luxurious than any cigarette I've ever smoked.

> I just ate an orange that cost 50¢ and it was more luxurious than any cigarette I've ever smoked.

Given $5 for a pack, that's double the price. Expenses add up.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#177

Post by LanceH »

_bpgl wrote: post #162
LanceH wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now" This also describes how a lot of people are poor.

> "the poor are trading years in the future for pleasantness now" > This also describes how a lot of people are poor. I suppose we should be cheered by your qualification "a lot of," since it seems to indicate that you at least have to acknowledge your growing awareness that some, if not the majority nor vast majority, of the poor are there for structural reasons, rather than shortsightedness. What of those who are t…

"you have opened yourself up to a responsibility to think critically about those whom you have dismissed"

I don't think I dismissed anyone. People make bad decisions on things they are in control of and it makes them more poor. The rich have more self control -- maybe not. Those with good self control tend to be better off -- definitely.

I'm all for the argument that smoking is a rational choice for someone without a lot of money. There is also the compelling argument that poor impulse control, being poor and smoking have a strong correlation. Maybe even as a common cause for poverty and smoking.

Having watched friends spend entire paychecks drinking, smoking, having unprotected sex (with the inevitable consequences), buying new camaros at blistering interest rates, fleetingly fashionable clothes -- I somehow think that my choice to eat mountains of rice and beans and live with roommates somehow had something to do with my relative success.

Sure, you can tell some people it's not their fault, but absolving everyone of responsibility for their choices is not helping them at all.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#178

Post by JauntTrooper »

exergy wrote: post #128
tnorthcutt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing in Italy and France, in my experience. Quite baffling, really.

The French have it down to an art form. The difference here is smokers still seem to be outside hiking, walking, snowboarding, biking and doing all manner of outdoor things. I'd be interested in how lung cancer rates compare between the US and France.

US: 38.4 per 100,000

France: 35.0 per 100,000

Note there's a very long lag time, and current cancer rates can reflect smoking habits from decades ago.

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#179

Post by Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd »

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #74

One of the things that surprised me in Germany was the extremely high smoking rate. Apparently the adult smoking rate is between 40-45%. My experience was that it is by no means limited to poor people either. It was really surprising to me to see a country which presents itself as a modern, progressive force in the world having cigarette vending machines on almost every street in the country. To contrast, I was recen…

I don't think your numbers for Germany are right. According to [1], the rate is 25% for people aged 15+. It's twice as high for people of low social status compared than people of high social status [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_in_Germany [2] http://edoc.rki.de/oa/articles/reEi8wDOV3B1g/PDF/25UH9cUwefu... page 4

Re: America’s new tobacco crisis: The rich stopped smoking, the poor didn’t

#180

Post by quantdev »

smokethrowaway wrote: post #170
quantdev wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very strange that you've never felt stimulation or increased focus from nicotine! It's possible that you have some genetic variation that causes that or it's possible you're just not self aware, but I couldn't say which. For an incredible overview of the benefits and harms of nicotine, see Gwen: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine

This ... is truly a bizarre revelation. I had no idea people actually got such physical pleasure and stimulation from smoking. [1] I guess it's one of those things that's so obvious no one actually says it. If you think about it, that benefit is never mentioned in debates about smoking and the appropriate government response. I know because I aggressively scour for such upsides, being the "hipster contrarian". Had I…

I'm glad you had a revelation and took it so well. Although maybe not as extreme as you, I also used to think nicotine/cigarettes had almost no benefits and was surprised to learn otherwise. I'll go so far as to say as nicotine is quite possibly the most successful nootropic, with modafinil a close second.
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