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How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

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Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#41

Post by camus2 »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

> As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good.

Unions are made of people, like any group, there are as good or as bad as the people they are made of. Unions absolutely can make the difference for underpaid workers. Unions have lawyers workers can get advisce from and they level the playing field between the employer and the worker.

What I find odd is you pretending a lot of people think that unions are always good. In US the majority of people think unions are bad.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#42

Post by [deleted] »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

[deleted]

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#43

Post by RandomOpinion »

throw2016 wrote: post #32
Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

This is a bit like saying the wealthy are all bad or the poor are lazy. Sure some could be but if one takes the worst examples to draw a conclusion then it becomes idealogical. The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological. Unions are an organizational structure, like industry groups or lobbying groups. Just like the latter exist to represent industry interests, unions need t…

> The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological.

Ideological? A vast multitude of people have cited ongoing examples of misbehavior and abuse that they themselves have personally witnessed, which you casually handwave away by saying it's just "ideological".

How about unions start actually cleaning up their act and making themselves respected champions of the worker again?

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#44

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

stale2002 wrote: post #15
jorvi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions aren't bad in itself. They largely solve the power asymmetry that exists between larger companies and their employees. Its only that at a certain point unions get so big there's actually a power asymmetry the other way: unions can strongarm the companies. How to restore the balance? I have no idea.

The way that you restore balance is that you make it illegal to force people to join them, as it is in many right to work states. If unions are so great, then they can stand on their own. If they end up sucking, then people will leave them.

Except right-to-work laws allow non-union members to freeride. If we truly wanted to restore balance then people opting out of the union wouldn't be able to benefit from any of the union's negotiations. Of course then everyone would join the union so...

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#45

Post by emcrazyone »

stale2002 wrote: post #13
Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

a few years back in Michigan, governor Snyder signed into law the right-to-work legislation. Indiana did the same earlier that same year (2012 I think). Giving employees to opt out of any unions

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#46

Post by elicash »

scoofy wrote: post #34
elicash wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you're special. And contracts can even be negotiated with a group to recognize individual performance! But the data is pretty clear that when workers bargain collectively, they can negotiate higher pay and better benefits.

I think the real issue is what "benefits" means. If benefits means healthcare, then i'm all for it. If benefits means it's nearly impossible to fire someone, or that seniority trumps performance, then it seems more like it will negatively impact many workers than it is supposed to benefit.

If that's true, that should make it easy for you to work with your coworkers to allow more lax rules about firing when negotiating and in return -- since management will surely be happy too -- you can probably get management to negotiate something that your coworkers would prefer!

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#47

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

RandomOpinion wrote: post #43
throw2016 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit like saying the wealthy are all bad or the poor are lazy. Sure some could be but if one takes the worst examples to draw a conclusion then it becomes idealogical. The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological. Unions are an organizational structure, like industry groups or lobbying groups. Just like the latter exist to represent industry interests, unions need t…

> The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological. Ideological? A vast multitude of people have cited ongoing examples of misbehavior and abuse that they themselves have personally witnessed, which you casually handwave away by saying it's just "ideological". How about unions start actually cleaning up their act and making themselves respected champions of the worker again?

It is ideological. The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. They exist to balance one another.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#48

Post by throw2016 »

RandomOpinion wrote: post #43
throw2016 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bit like saying the wealthy are all bad or the poor are lazy. Sure some could be but if one takes the worst examples to draw a conclusion then it becomes idealogical. The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological. Unions are an organizational structure, like industry groups or lobbying groups. Just like the latter exist to represent industry interests, unions need t…

> The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological. Ideological? A vast multitude of people have cited ongoing examples of misbehavior and abuse that they themselves have personally witnessed, which you casually handwave away by saying it's just "ideological". How about unions start actually cleaning up their act and making themselves respected champions of the worker again?

No one dismisses the concept of banking because of bad banks or startups because of say Theranos, so why must unions live up to this mythical status of a perfect organization?

There will be bad eggs so blame them. Using that to demonize unions as a concept is ideological and disingenuous.

Business and industries have industry groups and lobbying groups. Professionals like lawyers, doctors, architects and engineers have their own groups. Why would everyone in the system need protection and safeguarding of their rights and interests except workers?

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#49

Post by obstinate »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #44
stale2002 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way that you restore balance is that you make it illegal to force people to join them, as it is in many right to work states. If unions are so great, then they can stand on their own. If they end up sucking, then people will leave them.

Except right-to-work laws allow non-union members to freeride. If we truly wanted to restore balance then people opting out of the union wouldn't be able to benefit from any of the union's negotiations. Of course then everyone would join the union so...

And it's quite hard to do that. Companies tend not to want to negotiate with a union and have a separate compensation structure for non-union employees in the same job families. It's hard to have or benefit from one set of working conditions for union members and one for non-members.

IMO, both employees and employers should be free to form what groups they please and negotiate what contracts they will. This includes contracts that forbid an employer from hiring non-union workers. But there should also be no law mandating such a provision. Of course subject to government regulation that supersedes contracts (health and safety, human rights provisions, others).

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#50

Post by brightball »

tclancy wrote: post #39
brightball wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure this didn't help: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-unions-move-to-end-strike... > Boeing's value has reportedly fallen by about $5.3 billion since the walkout began and that strikers have lost more than $125 million in wages Followed by this 8 years later... http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/06/news/companies/boeing_strike... And then this 5 years later... http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/20/news/companies/boein…

Unions exercising the one power they have 3x in 15 years (by your timeline; the url dates suggest otherwise) is ridiculous? What should they have done instead?

This was a rejected offer from that 2008 article. The url without a date on it was March 17, 2000.

> The company had offered union members raises over the next three years totaling 11% of current pay. Boeing also offered bonuses and pension improvements it said would give the typical worker about $34,000 in additional pay and benefits during that time.

When you're given offers like that and rejecting them and it becomes a pattern that the company can expect to cost them billions of dollars every few years...what exactly do you expect company execs to do? Not have backup plans?

This is a company that's literally handing out jobs throughout a lot of the worst periods of the US economy...and it warrants constant strikes?

Look up some Airbus strikes for comparison. The articles I've seen are strikes over job cuts. There was a German strike at 4 plants that lasted...90 minutes.

At some point...yes...it is ridiculous and there are a lot of other people who would be more than happy to have the jobs you're striking over.

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