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The Hidden Cost of Privatization

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81–90 of 174 posts

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#81
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree that people should help one another. In fact, it's inherently built in to a lot of people. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against being forced to help others who I have no relationship with, live in far off places, hold different health standards than me, etc. Believe me, if a family member of close friend needed help with medical expenses, I'd be the first to volunteer.

But what about the millions of people with poor family/friends? Are they supposed to just roll over and die if they get sick? And don't say 'but charity', we already know charity is massively insufficient.

No, absolutely not.

You're assuming that if the government didn't mandate health insurance, nobody would step in to help those people, which I don't believe is true. Lots of different groups – religious, businesses, municipalities, etc. – could fill that role. Individuals could even give directly to strangers in need through something like https://donorsee.com/.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#82
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you justify the healthy paying for the unhealthy? Because we live in a society, and in a society people help one another.

I absolutely agree that people should help one another. In fact, it's inherently built in to a lot of people. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against being forced to help others who I have no relationship with, live in far off places, hold different health standards than me, etc. Believe me, if a family member of close friend needed help with medical expenses, I'd be the first to volunteer.

> I'm arguing against being forced to help others who I have no relationship with, live in far off places, hold different health standards than me, etc.

How is that any difference from defense, law enforcement, fire protection, or property rights standards?

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#84
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your 'solution' would be massively regressive - what if Texas decides to rescind Medicaid? Medicaid is a voluntary state-run program with federal participation standards. Texas could withdraw from Medicaid if it chose to, now. All states have chosen to participate since 1982, but they are not required to.

OK, so use any other example. What if Florida decides to roll back gay marriage? What if Alabama rescinds the Civil Rights Act? Are those who can't afford to move supposed to just deal with it?

There's a significant part of the U.S. population that wants to roll back gay marriage. What if that happened? As it is, you'd have to move out of the country.

You're relying on the right people being in office/power making the right decisions in your opinion. But of course, at any point the wrong people can get into office and make the wrong decision in your opinion. For nearly half the country, that happened when Obama entered office, and then again when Trump entered office.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine if unions were strong and IT were unionized. How would you imagine the progress we've seen in information technology? The following would likely happen: * Wages would be higher, tech behemoth profits would be lower. * Vastly more attention would be drawn to some of the worse outsourcing disasters (some of which are currently covered up). * Those egregious IP agreements would be less common. * Employee share…

Oooh how about these ones: Your pay would be pegged to seniority, not ability to contribute. Better pay your dues, newbie. You don't deserve as much money as I do, solely because of your age. You wouldn't be allowed to do anything outside your extremely limited job description. That's someone else's job, don't take it away from them! No more wearing many hats. Unless you literally kill someone, you are immune from be…

>Your pay would be pegged to seniority, not ability to contribute

That's pretty much how it works now. I've never had a boss who was able to accurately (or even non-accurately) gauge my productivity and I'll bet that unless your job is mind-numbing, you haven't either.

I've had bosses who have counted SLOC though and stupidly tried to use that to gauge my productivity.

Unions usually agree to formalize the existing peg to seniority so that the company doesn't use pay/promotion structure as a means to punish active union members.

>You wouldn't be allowed to do anything outside your extremely limited job description. That's someone else's job, don't take it away from them!

I'm strangely ok with my bosses not firing my coworker and then dumping all his work on me, which has happened to me.

>Find a good way to make your job more efficient? Sorry, you can't use that. It is not in your contract

This idea makes no sense to me. Furthermore, at a lot of the companies I've worked at, middle managers haven't given a damn about efficiency and they often purposefully reduced it so that they could increase their headcount (read: their power).

>Don't work too hard.

Am I supposed to be terrified of a company that makes me go home at a reasonable hour rather than implicitly pressuring me to stay at work until 10pm every night?

>The contract says that we are only supposed to solve 1 bug a day.

No it doesn't.

>You'd have to get some sort of union sponsored certification/significant barriers to entry, Because the union does not care about NEW workers.

Which may help separate some of the wheat from the chaff as it does with doctors. Are you in favor of this type of thing or would you prefer it was prevented?

http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer...

>Collective bargaining means that you won't be able to negotiate on an individual basis.

Yes, and that means higher pay overall. Divide and conquer isn't good for you as an individual.

>No matter how good at negotiating you are

Didn't you just say that you thought pay should be linked to your ability to contribute? Why now are you so keen on "ability to negotiate"? Are you morally opposed to seeing my equally skilled friends earn as much as me because they don't drive a bargain quite as hard as I do?

>Don't like the union? Too bad! You are forced to join it. Fuck you, you free rider!

So are you pro-free rider?

You seem to be saying that individual agreements with the company are "good" but collective agreements with the company (which are used to eliminate said free riders) are "bad". Why are collective agreements intrinsically bad?

>It doesn't matter if you believe that the union provides significant negatives

It does, which is why unions are run on a democratic basis. On the other hand, did you vote for your boss? Thought not.

Unions serve as the only really reliable check on corrupt corporate power running roughshod over workers. Sometimes they are corrupt. That does not mean that eliminating them will improve your situation.

And, of course, if you really don't want to work for a unionized workplace you can go and work at a non-unionized workplace.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#86
post #76
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They run over a pedestrian without insurance, now that pedestrian has no way to pay for their medical care.

You liquidate the assets of the at-fault party. If that is insufficient you garnish their wages. Financial responsibility is something to be enforced by courts, not mandated by congress.

They died in the accident, leaving behind a critically injured spouse and their kids.

The medical bills for any one of the surviving parties dwarf the net assets of the deceased.

Who pays the remainder?

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What supports that conclusion? There are lots of services – most actually, even insurance services – that thrive with voluntary participation. And the prices are driven down by lots of different companies competing for those customers.

Health insurance is not like other insurance. As best I know, no other insurance has the feature that an identifiable subset of people will need more than they can reasonably pay in the future. If we somehow knew my house was going to fall down in the next ten years, I couldn't feasibly insure it, and there are people who'll need much more healthcare than my house costs. Arguably that militates against treating it as…

I agree that the existing system is completely out of balance in terms of supply and demand. Why is that? I believe it's because government has intervened in the healthcare market, and removing them will lead to a market that's much more aligned with consumer demand.

Even now, there are places like https://surgerycenterok.com/ that prove high quality healthcare can be provided at affordable prices (they even list them on their website!).

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#88

The problem in Keynes thinking on "social services" is that it's impossible to gather all of the knowledge necessary to ascertain what those would be. That knowledge is dispersed among ~320m citizens (in the U.S.) who each have particular wants and needs. And even if you could somehow attain that knowledge in one place, the likelihood of finding consensus on how a particular "social service" should be offered is next…

Because if you don't mandate insurance, then the entire system falls apart. Sick people need it, healthy people don't want to pay for it. You need everyone to pay to make it affordable.

You're confusing insurance with healthcare. Insurance is supposed to be for risk mitigation, rare but extremely damaging events. If everyone uses insurance for everything health related, like we all want to do now, it's impossible for insurance to be anything other than a premium you pay on top of your healthcare costs.

Insurance shouldn't be used for routine stuff, and people shouldn't be required to have it unless they want it.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#89
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just compare for profit higher education with public higher education. The wages/benefits for workers former very much lag those of the latter. And here appears the Broken Window Fallacy!

What exactly do you think is "broken" when a worker gets higher pay? In the Broken Window Fallacy story, the total wealth in the system is decreased when the window is destroyed. In this example, no wealth is destroyed, it is just distributed differently. If you believe that wealth has a decreasing marginal utility as you become more wealthy, the more even distribution where the worker is paid more has a higher overa…

"decreasing marginal utility"

I know I'm bastardizing the meaning but it got me thinking about Elon Musk versus "prototypical lotto winner that loses everything" you could certainly argue that he is using his wealth(as well as others) to benefit society, ie. mars, electrification of transportation, etc.

Re: The Hidden Cost of Privatization

#90
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if unions were strong and IT were unionized. How would you imagine the progress we've seen in information technology? The impact on progress should not be discounted as an externality. Imagine if taxicabs or any livery service of any kind had to have a union member associated with it. Would autonomous cars make the same progress (for example, we can have autonomous subways/trains but they have to be "personne…

IT unionized? The Union of Loners.

Continuing to comment like this will get your account banned.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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