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The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

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Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#111

Post by nemo44x »

nradov wrote: post #106
nemo44x wrote: post #98

If I had a Bitcoin for every skeptic that posts a blog on why it can't work... This may just be my general observation but I feel like Silicon Valley hegemony has a grudge against crypto currencies and I'm not sure why. For an industry that has constantly tried new things and saw potential where no one else did, I just don't see the love for the potential of smart contracts, DApps, etc. And how this is just the begin…

Bitcoin is mostly popular in Eastern Europe and Asia for transfer payments, fiat currency conversion, money laundering, and evading capital controls (getting money out of China). In the US if you're doing legitimate business with other US entities then there's really no need for such a thing. I can write a check or send a credit card payment or wire transfer to another US bank with a reasonably high level of trust th…

I agree with this but you might be missing my point. Crypto as a store of value and the ability to transfer funds is nice and all but it's not the big picture. I think focusing on that you rightly see limited practical application in large parts of the world, such as the USA.

The real revolution is in smart contracts and virtual machines that run on a blockchain and the ability to define ownership of a distributed organization to distribute profits accordingly. Blockchains on blockchains that having turing complete contracts that can guarantee there isn't even the ability to cheat the distributed, mainly anonymous organization participants.

We aren't even close to that - it still takes an incredibly suspect ICO to raise money by selling stake for a top level coin in which they will inevitably have to convert partially to fiat and the vast potential for scams there. But the smart contract can be programmatically limited and only release funds over time and only continue to when certain events have taken place, and refund otherwise, etc. I guess I just see the vast potential here. More infrastructure supporting things is required and I'm not sure what that is but someone will discover these pieces.

I see many more Asian and European groups trying to build these types of things today. Maybe it's out of necessity as well since there isn't a vast source of wealth available to fund these crazy, new ideas.

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#112

Post by root_axis »

nemo44x wrote: post #98

If I had a Bitcoin for every skeptic that posts a blog on why it can't work... This may just be my general observation but I feel like Silicon Valley hegemony has a grudge against crypto currencies and I'm not sure why. For an industry that has constantly tried new things and saw potential where no one else did, I just don't see the love for the potential of smart contracts, DApps, etc. And how this is just the begin…

The source of the distaste is obvious: breathless hyperbole without much substance to show for it. Posts like yours are a great example of it. In this very comment you write:

> leading the charge on what could be the next major technical revolution

Unsubstantiated hype. Where is the revolution? A common thread among cryptocurrency enthusiasts is that the revolution is coming... except it never does. When you talk about revolution, non-enthusiasts roll their eyes.

> Silicon Valley has been getting fat on the virtually unlimited venture capital power structure and sees this as a threat they've missed out on to their power.

A classic argument from crypto enthusiasts who have to imagine that people are literally afraid of bitcoin. It's laughably condescending and absurd. Bitcoin is not a threat to anyone and most certainly not silicon valley billionaires. Besides, it's not as if SV VCs haven't invested money in bitcoin, it's just that bitcoin is a horrible investment, e.g. 21.co, 120 million in VC dollars flushed down the toilet for a business model that was clearly a failure from the start, but those investors fell vulnerable to the hype and learned a valuable lesson from it.

> Maybe the disrupters are being disrupted

Another sample of breathless hyperbole that causes non-enthusiasts to cringe. Where is the disruption? Bitcoin is a smidgeon of a fraction of the commerce activity happening on the internet, and even with the rising price, bitcoin remains difficult and relatively unsafe to use (for the non-technical masses) and provides zero benefits for most people. Yes, peer to peer transmission of value is cool, I'm not saying bitcoin is useless, but for most people there is no reason to use bitcoin and there never will be. Contrast these facts on the ground with the never-ending blockchain hype and the result is overall disillusionment with blockchains in general.

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#113

Post by FussyZeus »

nemo44x wrote: post #111
nradov wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is mostly popular in Eastern Europe and Asia for transfer payments, fiat currency conversion, money laundering, and evading capital controls (getting money out of China). In the US if you're doing legitimate business with other US entities then there's really no need for such a thing. I can write a check or send a credit card payment or wire transfer to another US bank with a reasonably high level of trust th…

I agree with this but you might be missing my point. Crypto as a store of value and the ability to transfer funds is nice and all but it's not the big picture. I think focusing on that you rightly see limited practical application in large parts of the world, such as the USA. The real revolution is in smart contracts and virtual machines that run on a blockchain and the ability to define ownership of a distributed or…

> Maybe it's out of necessity as well since there isn't a vast source of wealth available to fund these crazy, new ideas.

I think it's more out of necessity because of the lack of the comprehensive and (relatively) solid way that you can litigate in the USA and European Union when business dealings go south. Capitalism in the East and the Soviet Bloc countries is improving their lives but it's also shockingly unregulated, arguably similar to the US in the roaring 20's. Back then that meant contracts were enforced at the barrel of a gun, but while the contractual law litigation doesn't work well in those countries, they can handle murderers pretty well so instead they find the cryptocurrencies attractive because it gives them options to protect their assets in a way that is immune to violence or petty theft.

At least that's my 0.02.

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#114

Post by root_axis »

nemo44x wrote: post #111
nradov wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is mostly popular in Eastern Europe and Asia for transfer payments, fiat currency conversion, money laundering, and evading capital controls (getting money out of China). In the US if you're doing legitimate business with other US entities then there's really no need for such a thing. I can write a check or send a credit card payment or wire transfer to another US bank with a reasonably high level of trust th…

I agree with this but you might be missing my point. Crypto as a store of value and the ability to transfer funds is nice and all but it's not the big picture. I think focusing on that you rightly see limited practical application in large parts of the world, such as the USA. The real revolution is in smart contracts and virtual machines that run on a blockchain and the ability to define ownership of a distributed or…

Please offer a practical example of how smart contracts are useful.

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#115

Post by nradov »

wayn3 wrote: post #87
jeffnappi wrote: post #82

DLTs are inefficient by design. The energy consumption is unsustainable with the technology as it stands. For example Bitcoin consumed an estimated 40 million KWh in the past 24 hours - 137KWh per transaction . Enough to power ~1.3M American homes. Many of the alt-coins are even worse. Source: http://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

i think its a fair argument to claim that bleeding edge technology is inefficient during its invention phase. the very first fusion reactors arent all that efficient, either.

The very latest fusion reactors aren't efficient either, still under unity. Maybe we'll have commercial fusion power in 30 years...

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#116

Post by corv »

root_axis wrote: post #114
nemo44x wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this but you might be missing my point. Crypto as a store of value and the ability to transfer funds is nice and all but it's not the big picture. I think focusing on that you rightly see limited practical application in large parts of the world, such as the USA. The real revolution is in smart contracts and virtual machines that run on a blockchain and the ability to define ownership of a distributed or…

Please offer a practical example of how smart contracts are useful.

ICO's are clearly enjoying a use.

Largest crowdfunding in history can't be ignored - whether it ends in tears for most investors is another matter entirely.

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#117

Post by DINKDINK »

KirinDave wrote: post #109
wildbunny wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, this is the major strength of the system.

If by strength you mean, "A clear methodology from which a sufficiently large ec2 buy can rapidly fragment the Bitcoin consensus" then yes, I suppose that's fantastic. From the perspective of people transacting on Bitcoin's infrastructure I suspect they'd call it "an attack."

>a sufficiently large ec2 buy can rapidly fragment the Bitcoin consensus

You grossly underestimate the hashing capacity of the bitcoin network. The hashing capacity, at time of posting, is approximately 5,000,000,000 Gigahashes/second[1]. Spot measurement of the hashing capacity of an EC2 instance is 0.4 Gigahashes/second[2]. You would need 12 BILLION EC2 instances to 51% attack the bitcoin network.[3] Using EC2 to attack the network is impractical and inefficient.

[1] https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1btgl1/i_was_curio...

[3] x/(5e18+x)=.51 y=x/.4e8

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#118

Post by root_axis »

corv wrote: post #116
root_axis wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please offer a practical example of how smart contracts are useful.

ICO's are clearly enjoying a use. Largest crowdfunding in history can't be ignored - whether it ends in tears for most investors is another matter entirely.

I asked for a practical example. Just because a bunch of people decided to spend their money on internet tokens does not mean it is useful. How is it useful?

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#119

Post by [deleted] »

jasode wrote: post #107
eterm wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prove useful for other recordkeeping such as real estate property transactions (e.g. no need to pay $300 fee for title searches in the future) That doesn't require a distributed ledger, just a database. In the UK it costs £3 and is searchable online. If it costs $300 then that is because someone wants it to cost that much.

> In the UK it costs £3 and is searchable online. If it costs $300 then My short text didn't give enough context. In the USA, that $$$ isn't really for the "search"; it's to pay for the "title insurance" . That title company insures that the buyer is getting a "clean title" with no conflicting claims of ownership from others he doesn't know about. The "search" is just one component of labor of what you're paying for.…

[deleted]

Re: The blockchain paradox: Why DLTs may do little to transform the economy

#120

Post by coldtea »

nemo44x wrote: post #98

If I had a Bitcoin for every skeptic that posts a blog on why it can't work... This may just be my general observation but I feel like Silicon Valley hegemony has a grudge against crypto currencies and I'm not sure why. For an industry that has constantly tried new things and saw potential where no one else did, I just don't see the love for the potential of smart contracts, DApps, etc. And how this is just the begin…

>If I had a Bitcoin for every skeptic that posts a blog on why it can't work...

And if I had a real dollar for everyone raving about some optimistic Bitcoin utopia...

>This may just be my general observation but I feel like Silicon Valley hegemony has a grudge against crypto currencies and I'm not sure why.

Because they're a solution of a problem that doesn't exist? Or rather, whose actual solution is political, not technical.

>Maybe the disrupters are being disrupted?

Or maybe the fad is over and nobody much cared?

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