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Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

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Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#271

Post by jimmyk »

winter_blue wrote: post #184
stale2002 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, how about instead, we let Europe do that. And then us in America and Canada can see how that works out for them. The beauty of countries is that different countries can try vastly different things, and then we can look at the results afterwords and see which countries made good decisions and which made bad decisions.

Well, the United States is a living example of a country that tried that, and um ... hasn't failed because of it. Until the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, there were no restrictions on immigration. And after that, the immigration of white people was still completely unrestricted, until the Immigration Act of 1921. And after which, it was still relatively easy for citizens from Western European countries to move to th…

>Well, the United States is a living example of a country that tried that, and um ... hasn't failed because of it.

When did the US A) allow unrestricted immigration of people of non-European origin, B) actually have significant numbers of immigrants of non-European origin, and C) not quickly move to restrict that immigration?

Unrestricted immigration of people of European origins is not the same thing as opening up the borders without restriction.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#272

Post by querulous »

avip wrote: post #175
didibus wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV. But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so. I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest differen…

>In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in Canada, even with a large family. Have you actually tried that, or just hyperbolizing? Many devs in Canada net 4-5K/m. Rent in Vancouver would easily be 1.5-2.5K/m for a "large family". That's not a "very comfortable" spot.

you need to double those rent figures for vancouver

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#273

Post by querulous »

cylinder wrote: post #100
shados wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almos…

Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?

they do, but the canadians aren't stupid; they move to us jobs for 2x the compensation. the canadian offices are staffed mostly by non-canadians who couldn't get H1Bs or TNs but could qualify for the equivalent canadian visa.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#274

Post by sumitgt »

zodiac wrote: post #255
sumitgt wrote: post #47

One reason that is often over-looked is the green card backlog issue in the US that affects tech workers from India/China. I'd easily make the choice to move to Canada where I can get a green card right away rather than wait 10 years for a green card in US. Salaries might be low, but one cannot put a $ amount on peace of mind.

Are you referring to Canadian permanent residency?

No, I meant US permanent residency which takes 10+ years in EB2. For Canada, one can easily get a PR via Express Entry. Which is why many people like me are strongly considering Canada irrespective of salary.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#275

Post by rb808 »

canadian123456 wrote: post #149
rb808 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but the second problem isn't the general level of salaries its that most countries dont have a city like the Bay Area or NYC. If you compare similar types of cities: Portland/Vancouver and Chicago/Toronto I dont think the salaries are 3x. (Though I get the point that this isn't consistent with my first comment)

Entry level for a really good engineer in Toronto is... 90k if we're optimistic & it's changed since I last looked last year? Entry level for a really good engineer in America is 185k+. Total compensation, obviously. That's before taking into account the volume of job opportunities, exchange rate, and access to goods and services.

> Entry level for a really good engineer in America is 185k+.

Maybe in the Bay area. Most of the USA you'd get half that with 10y experience.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#276

Post by nasalgoat »

jonny_eh wrote: post #212
avaer wrote: post #60

The reason engineer salaries in Canada are low, especially for startups, isn't that companies are cheap. It's that there is no funding or support network for growing companies -- nothing compared to the valley. In my experience seed funding in Canada doesn't mean "this idea looks like it's on a promising growth trajectory, here's 100K for a bit of equity to see what we can make of it". Instead it means "show us $500K…

I don't disagree with your points, but I'd like to point out Shopify as an exception. Started in Ottawa, grew, got VC funding, grew some more, IPO'd on NYSE, and is still headquartered in Ottawa.

There's one or two of them, but they are hen's teeth.

My startup has a $10M run rate after three years and the best we can do is get debenture and loan offers, no actual investment.

Investors in Canada hate technology.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#277

Post by nasalgoat »

drspacemonkey wrote: post #3

While we could certainly pick up a few people, I can't see how it could possibly be more than a few unless Canada's tech firms start paying more. Source: developer in Vancouver who could easily get 2x the salary a 4 hour train ride south. I stay in Canada because it's my home.

For me, I don't qualify for a TN visa because I don't have a college degree. I could probably walk in off the street to most places in SF with my 20+ years of experience and triple my salary, but my visa eligibility leaves me here.

There's lots of people in similar situations, so it's not impossible to find 10x devs up here, just more difficult than SF.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#278

Post by nasalgoat »

MichaelGG wrote: post #173
goodcanadian wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not the person you replied to, but US$3000 is about CA$4000 or CA$48000 per year. For a junior software development position, that does seem to be in the ballpark of what gets offered in Canada.

On the higher end, I'm told 120K seems to be quite upper end for senior development -- this is near Toronto. That even at AMD, getting over 120K was very hard and rare - that's just $90K USD.

I can tell you, any dev getting $120K in Toronto is someone with decades of experience, probably working for a bank.

Top end dev pay is about $100K here, especially in the web space. Average would be $60-$75K. And that's Canadian!

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#279

Post by sage76 »

eigenvector wrote: post #236
sage76 wrote: post #71

Poignant for me, I haven't been able to decide on where to move. US is still the big whale as far as tech opportunities go, but for Indians going there now, permanent residency is not possible within their lifetimes, with an 80+ year waiting time on the green card processing. Canada is far easier to permanently settle in, but the opportunities are far fewer, and salaries are lower too. I don't know what the answer is…

The path I've seen many immigrants take (particularly young people who don't mind re-settling twice) is move to Canada, live here for 3 years, get citizenship then move to the US on a TN visa. I would say 50% of the international students I knew in engineering school did this. As you probably know Canada is by far the easiest G7 country to be naturalized as a citizen. Others come to Canada with the intention of doing…

> The mistake I've seen immigrants make is move to Canada, then move to the US on an H1B, L1 or other visa before attaining Canadian citizenship, lose their Canadian PR due to leaving the country permanently, then lose their US job & visa and end up having to return to their original country.

Ouch, that sounds terrible.

Yes, getting citizenship in Canada first seems like a good idea. Btw, it's not 3, it's 4 years.

It's a sad commentary on the broken immigration system of the US, when it would be faster for me to get Canadian citizenship, and then switch to US citizenship than go directly for US citizenship.

Though of course, I wonder if the US authorities would be able to find out I am switching citizenships like that, and cause issues. Do you know anyone who did this?

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#280

Post by winter_blue »

jimmyk wrote: post #220
winter_blue wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you absolutely don't have the right to threaten me with violence and harm with the aim of blocking me from inviting my non-citizen friend from staying at my house, in my property -- which is the despicable (and immoral) unquestioned status quo of today. Simply because you belong to a majority (or minority) of the citizens of my country, does not give you the right to dictate who I can hire, who I can invite into…

>And you absolutely don't have the right That's true according to some moral systems and not true according to others. What's more important is that we have the power to do so, and we think it's in our interest to do so, so we do it. If you want to convince us not to restrict immigration, you'll have to convince us it's not in our interest to do so. Saying we're immoral according to your chosen moral system will pers…

This is a debate about morality, but one with real world consequences. I strongly believe some moral systems are superior to others.

In the moral system of the mid-19th century U.S. South, it was moral and right to have slaves. Human beings could be property. Similarly, in the communist and some socialist moral systems, it is evil and immoral for me to, say, start a company, and make millions of dollars of wealth. I have to share the fruit of my labor with other citizens of my country who did not work hard, and who might have spent the time I was toiling on my startup, playing video games and watching Netflix.

> you'll have to convince us it's not in our interest to do so

Absolutely not. As long as your self-interest doesn't violate the rights of others, I fully respect. But the moment you want to oppress my freedom, for the sake of your self-interest, I say fuck you self-interest. I don't need to convince you of anything. Why?

* Your same repugnant self-interest argument was used by slave owners. It wasn't in their self-interest to lose their free labor. It was economic disaster to relinquish slave labor. To quote, the Mississippi Declaration of Secession, it was "the greatest material interest of the world", c.f. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_missec.asp

* You have no right to dictate to me that I can only associate with you (i.e. whether in employment, friendship, marriage etc). I should be free to hire any one from any country as I see fit. Immigration restrictions are oppressive and immoral, c.f. https://openborders.info/

* If I started a company, and made large amounts of money, and you decided to play video games and watch Netflix all day long while I toiled day and night, then you have no fucking moral right to live on money stolen by taxing the income of hard-working people like myself.

Frankly, I am under no obligation to convince you that you should not oppress my freedom, and threaten me with violence, to further your self-interest.

I believe in absolute objective morality. I don't think there are multiple "fair/just" moral frameworks. I reject the moral framework that upholds slavery. I think communist (and some socialist) moral systems are evil and wrong. Similarly, I think the immigration laws of most countries in the world are objectively immoral, evil, and wrong.

Try to live without violating the rights and freedoms of the others. Thanks.

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