How Not to Fix Soccer • Hacker News Board

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#101

Post by lenni » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:00 PM UTC

megablast wrote: post #98

lenni wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are the countries where football is most popular. Why shouldn't they have the most influence? I don't know if there is such thing as a World American Football Association, but if there was, I'm sure Americans would call the shots.

There are other countries where soccer is also very popular, England, Germany, France, rest of western Europe, Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia.

I am German and have lived in England and in neither country I have seen a lot of enthusiasm for video refs or more severe penalties. Generally, people enjoy the unpredictability of the game.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#102

Post by ErrantX » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:08 PM UTC

jules wrote: post #100

ErrantX wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a crew of 20 people continuously reviewing the slow motion capture and they tell the results to the ref, who.... You see what I am saying about complicating things. These are just not needed as there are plenty of other fixes to try first! Are you claiming that a ref in the field can judge this better than one looking at a slow motion video? Well, uh, probably actually. You keep saying "injuries" without rea…

What does america have to do with it? > It doesn't matter; because it is just part and parcel of what makes up the game. End of. Football doesn't need to be Americanized (I think that term is justified, no offence intended) as far as I am concerned because we enjoy it the way it is. BTW, I'm from Europe. And everybody I know agrees that TV replays for judging fouls is good. So, your appeal to "we" is a non-argument a…

without mentioning what these fixes are.

I've discuses them elsewhere. The main ones:

- setting limits on player wages - harsher penalties for cheating or foul play via post-match review - faster review of matches

These address the same issue without materially affecting the game.

What does america have to do with it?

TV replays is a very US influenced idea. It seems fair to term it that way,

And everybody I know agrees that TV replays for judging fouls is good. So, your appeal to "we" is a non-argument at best.

ahem :) see below:

You are dropping all reasoning and you are just saying "we like it this way, no thanks.".

maybe it would be even better with replays.

I already laid out in quite some detail why I feel replays would interrupt game play and generally make the game less fun to watch overall.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#103

Post by djb_hackernews » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:16 PM UTC

zazi wrote: post #11

ubernostrum wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the events of the past year, the officiating most certainly does need to be fixed.

yes i see where you are coming from, some officials have been making bad calls. but some would argue that the refereeing is part of the game and instituting video replays etc might unnecessarily complicate matters and ruin the flow of the game. i play soccer in an amatuer league every weekend and although the referees generally are not of a high standard, I still enjoy it. its part of the game.

do you and your team mates dive to get calls? Is that fun?

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#104

Post by zalew » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:21 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #85

zalew wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's already being done, but not to punish dives. it's used to analyze more serious situations such as brutal fouls (a player can get additional punishment by football associations after the game, even to a complete season dismiss) or alleged corruption. dives are stupid and I hate them, but I think they are far overrated in the US (assumption from what I see in internet discussions)

On dives, I agree they're seen as a much bigger deal in the US than other places. I think many people not very familiar with soccer/football tend to assume that they're a much more serious offense than seems to be consensus within the sport. Essentially, people assume that they're a form of deliberate cheating, which in many sports is a kind of offense that would earn you a multi-game suspension on the first offense,…

It is deliberate cheating. On the other hand f.ex. tactical fouls are common in basketball, and nobody calls it cheating, just a common strategy. It's quite hard to get a technical foul or 5 fouls, so every end of an NBA game is 0:30 on the clock and till the end of the game you have foul after foul on both sides. I loved basket, but this one was really stupid and annoying.

Different sports, different "tactics".

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#105

Post by edanm » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:23 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #78

edanm wrote: post #64

One of the reasons Poker is so popular is that even a terrible player can beat a pro by chance, some of the time. I've always suspected the same is true of Football. Any attempt to "fix" the game by making refereeing better makes the game more fair. While that might seem like a good thing, I don't think anyone is qualified to decide whether that will make the game more or less popular. And considering it's the world'…

I have only ever seen this true in movies. A newbie doesn't know how to count cards, feel out bluffs, or develop a strategy. Given enough money and time they'll feel their way around the unspoken rules. But no one I know rolls up to a table pulls a royal flush and walks out away the winner.

Not true. Lots of people with very little skill have beaten superior players. They can't last against them for long, but they can get lucky. This is a known phenomenon around the poker world, and greatly works to pro's advantage (you would never wager money against a professional in other fields, since there is no way you could win. In poker, though, because bad players win once in a while, they can delude themselves into not realizing how bad they are).

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#106

Post by lutorm » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:25 PM UTC

bukkake wrote: post #84

davnola wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone faking an injury on my pitch used to get a red card for conduct detrimental to the game. Sorry, this is flat-out dangerous. You are not 100% certain who is really injured and who is not faking, and you are incentivising players who may not be sure whether or not they are injured to play on. I agree with your other 9 points, though.

You are correct. I was incentivising players who may not be sure whether or not they are injured to play on. Serious injuries (i.e. more than a sprain) at the amateur level are vanishingly rare. If you want to overcome the "sport for pussies" stigma that American Football players love to attach to soccer, there's got to be some tough love, at least in the USA.

Re "sport for pussies", my impression of watching American sports is "sport for lawyers". The rules and play of the game reflect the litigiousness of American society in general, with the rules (I'm thinking football here) being really complicated, having all kinds of weird exceptions, and then challenges that are like little "trials" where you have to review evidence etc. It makes it totally unenjoyable for me.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#107

Post by jules » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:30 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #102

jules wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does america have to do with it? > It doesn't matter; because it is just part and parcel of what makes up the game. End of. Football doesn't need to be Americanized (I think that term is justified, no offence intended) as far as I am concerned because we enjoy it the way it is. BTW, I'm from Europe. And everybody I know agrees that TV replays for judging fouls is good. So, your appeal to "we" is a non-argument a…

without mentioning what these fixes are. I've discuses them elsewhere. The main ones: - setting limits on player wages - harsher penalties for cheating or foul play via post-match review - faster review of matches These address the same issue without materially affecting the game. What does america have to do with it? TV replays is a very US influenced idea. It seems fair to term it that way, And everybody I know agr…

> - setting limits on player wages - harsher penalties for cheating or foul play via post-match review - faster review of matches > These address the same issue without materially affecting the game.

I agree that these are good suggestions, but you want to change the game. Remember US-Slovenia? I don't suppose you think it's good for one side (not) to win because the referee made an error?

> ahem :) see below:

Exactly my point: "we" is not a good argument.

> I already laid out in quite some detail why I feel replays would interrupt game play and generally make the game less fun to watch overall.

The point is that it doesn't interrupt the game, unless there was foul play (and then the game should be interrupted). The current situation is that the game gets interrupted when the referee thinks there is foul play, the situation with replays is that the game gets interrupted when there is foul play. The result is that there will be less foul play because the players know that the probability that they will be caught is much higher than it is now. And there will be less pretending to be hurt, because it's much harder to lie on slow motion capture.

You seem to be arguing against a system where the referee constantly stops the game and asks for replay reviews, which is not what I'm proposing. What I'm proposing is a system where a crew continuously watches replays and gives this information to the referee. It's the same idea as sideline referees, but much more accurate and general.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#108

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:39 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #99

megablast wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple way to avoid this, have a tribunal to review matches as they do in Aussie Rules football. If a player is caught deliberately diving, ban them for life. If everyone is wondering why the USA does not get into soccer, it is because the blatant cheating makes it a joke. It is not a real sport, and never will be, when one dive can win a game for a side, and have a player sent off. Americans have a sense of fair pla…

In the NFL there is generally at least one hold on every play that goes uncalled. Far from offending our sense of fair play, we accept it as part of the game. Basketball is actually strategically centered around fouling and drawing fouls, charging players under the hoop and assuming their feet aren't set, which they usually aren't. These are perfectly accepted aspects of the sport. I hate the diving in soccer, but th…

One of the most obnoxious things about basketball is how every close game ends with the losing team deliberately fouling to stop the clock.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#109

Post by lazyant » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:44 PM UTC

This is a good argument; that everybody can play because you just need a referee and not a lot of extra judging help or technical stuff. This is a good explanation of why soccer is so popular. The other one is that unless other sports you just need some sort of ball to start playing.

Actually we played 5 to a side (smaller field) football/soccer in college without referee and without the offside rule (which would make it hard to call). The only point of friction between teams were the faults (only obvious ones were called) so it could get a little rough but other than that the situations are mostly obvious and you can do without a ref in friendly games.

For critical decisions in a World Cup soccer could use video replay though, especially since the scoring is usually so low (average is about 1.5 goals per game so far I think) that a goal changes everything. Perhaps it could be used after the games just to punish "divers".

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#110

Post by philwelch » Tue, Jun 22, 2010, 2:53 PM UTC

bukkake wrote: post #26

The argument outlined in the article is absurd. Soccer is and has been by far the most popular sport participation wise in the USA for decades. I played and refereed it competitively for close to two decades until I started having problems with my knees. Most Americans are very well versed in soccer and have either played it themselves or have at least watched their kids play it. Most Americans have no problems with…

Every American spectator sport spends more time in stoppages than in actual play. The main business reason for this is for television advertising. And this is also the main reason soccer isn't a successful spectator sport in America.

"All American spectator sports are extremely fine tuned affairs."

Christ, I know. Have you seen the NFL rulebook that changes every year on substantive matters (like the definition of a "completed pass" whether or not you're pushed out of bounds)? It's horribly overcomplicated. The NBA's rules change nearly as much. At some point during the 90's, zone defenses were illegal. And even now, fouls under the basket are ruled based upon what side of a line you're standing on.

"Officiating standards are laughable. There is an unacceptably large amount of variation between referees regarding what is and is not legal play."

Oh, you mean like the strike zone in baseball?

"Offsides should always be "tie goes to the offense". There is no compelling reason to blow extremely close plays dead because the offensive player just might have been offsides by 6 inches. FIFA should issue a "point of emphasis" stating that "ties go to the offense"."

"Ties go to the runner" isn't even a rule in baseball. The offsides rule is one of the better governed parts of the game, there being a dedicated linesman and all. It's extremely rare to see an offsides call be wrong.

"There needs to be more than one referee."

I would not be opposed to having a fifth video referee.

"Referees should train as groups and speak a common language. This is even more important for an international world championship event. This is just common sense."

As I recall, World Cup referees are all required to speak English.

"Referees should be required to make distinguishing hand signals for each call. This would greatly aid the players, the fans, and the commentators in determining exactly what the ruling was."

I've seen a lot of soccer, and this generally isn't a problem at all.