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How Not to Fix Soccer

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Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#71

Post by bmj »

Maro wrote: post #16

I am familiar with the FIFA's reasoning, and I just don't think it holds up. The best example is the NBA: advanced technical rules at NBA games aren't stopping anyone from playing basketball on the courts or at the High School level. Also, the rules are different anyways. At the FIFA level, games are played on large fields for 2x45 minutes, there are 4 refs, etc. AFAIR HS level games were 2x30 minutes and we were luc…

I think perhaps limited replay for questionable goals might be useful (the French team would be watching from home if this were the case), and it wouldn't interrupt the flow of the game much. I don't think we'd have a situation like we do with American football where the ref spends five minutes looking at monitor--most of the blown calls are really easy to spot.

Bookings really shouldn't be reviewed, at least during the match. Perhaps FIFA could institute a review process post-match, however, to reinstate players that would be lost due a red card or multiple yellows.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#72

Post by hcho »

The reason FIFA does not want video reffing is not keeping the spirit of the footbal or what so ever.

FIFA (and UEFA for that matter) for that matter is a highly political organization which handles a lot of money with a somewhat obscure agenda. Fairness is a little bit less important when compared to leaving out big money nations(or clubs) from a tournement.

Error-prone refereeing is a vital tool for keeping as many big money nations in the tournements. Had there been video refereeing it would be harder to provide the extra push to the teams that need it.

Sounds too much like a conspiracy theory? Then tell me why it's almost always the smaller teams at the wrong end of the stick.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#73

Post by yardie »

ErrantX wrote: post #66
Maro wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game stops for 30 seconds after debatable situations anyway. Also, the rule could be set up in such a way that the main ref. has the option to call for the video replay if he's not sure. That way, the ref. can keep the game smooth but ask the 5th ref. to examine the video replay before game changing decisions.

Time it next time this happens. Barring injury a game does not frequently stop for a full 30 seconds, even when contentious decisions happen. And in cases where it does I wouldn't want to see it stopped even longer. One of the attractions of the game is that the referee is the law; he makes a decision on his best judgement and that is the game. I see your point; and it has merit. But I think it really detracts from t…

Cheating (especially diving) already detracts from the game. On top of that you have refs given god-like powers to determine a game with their human shortcomings.

Already, I can't take the world cup seriously. 2006, it was the Italians diving to get free penalty kicks. Now, I can't even trust the refs to make honest calls. I'll continue to watch the games until something better comes along.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#74

Post by ErrantX »

jules wrote: post #67
ErrantX wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it really kill soccer if we had video replay? Yes. Alot. Injuries already interrupt the flow of the game - and one thing Football is good at is flowing (one reason I personally enjoy it). A good game is non-stop action (which is my only criticism of US sports - I usually get bored waiting for baseball for example :)) Match outcomes are routinely altered by erroneous ref. decisions, decisions which the whole wor…

> Yes. Alot. Injuries already interrupt the flow of the game - and one thing Football is good at is flowing (one reason I personally enjoy it). Many many injuries are players pretending to be injured. Video capture would stop those "injuries". And if there is an injury you don't need to stop for 30 seconds. Replay reviewing can be quicker than the time it takes for the player to get up. > bad decisions aren't all tha…

> Many many injuries are players pretending to be injured. Video capture would stop those "injuries". And if there is an injury you don't need to stop for 30 seconds. Replay reviewing can be quicker than the time it takes for the player to get up.

Would it really? I don't think so at all - except in the most blatant cases. If contact is made, well, the player might be making a meal of it but the letter of the law is quite solid.

And if we had to stop each time a player went down to decide if contact was made or not that would just ruin the game :P

> Replay reviewing can be quicker than the time it takes for the player to get up.

Current rules require the player to leave the pitch for treatment. IMO this is a much more streamlined solution. If you change that for the same initial stoppage, plus the ref requesting a review, plus a restart of the game (which may take additional seconds to sort out) it starts to add up. I fail to see how a TV replay shortens that at all.

> They are extremely prevalent, especially not punishing players who pretend to be injured.

How do you define that though? Throwing themselves on the floor with no contact is, obviously, bad and should be punished. But if contact is made how do you judge whether an injury has occurred or not? It's next to impossible a decision to make. On many occasions players make the most out of it - on others the most innocent of taps can be excruciating (this is speaking as an ex-footballer in my youth :D).

To me TV replay represents classic over-engineering of a problem.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#75

Post by adw »

edanm wrote: post #62
adw wrote: post #21

Broadly speaking, European sports evolved before the spectator-sports industry and, as a result, are primarily for playing; American sports evolved afterwards and have been shaped (to a greater extent) by needing to be good to watch.

Quick check on Wikipedia shows Baseball was gaining popularity around 1860, and Basketball around 1900. Football was introduced around 1860. What am I missing?

That's the formal codification of football - Association Football, Rugby Football (both League and Union). The games themselves have been around for hundreds of years.

Really, though, it's a cultural thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_league is pretty typical.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#76

Post by davnola »

bukkake wrote: post #52
ErrantX wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is just differing perspectives; a lot of what you highlight, for me, makes US sports unwatchable (as i said elsewhere I can't watch all of a baseball game simply through boredom - despite quite liking the game). (though for the record post-mortems, referee training etc. are good ideas) Referees should be required to make distinguishing hand signals for each call. This would greatly aid the players, the f…

I'm a former ref and longtime player. I understand the flow of the game very well. Americans don't want to slow the game down in the slightest. What they want is more justice, post-mortem oversight, and less preventable human error. Anyone faking an injury on my pitch used to get a red card for conduct detrimental to the game. So I consider 5 minutes to be very generous. I'm aware that it's quite a long time. That's…

> Anyone faking an injury on my pitch used to get a red card for conduct detrimental to the game.

Sorry, this is flat-out dangerous.

You are not 100% certain who is really injured and who is not faking, and you are incentivising players who may not be sure whether or not they are injured to play on.

I agree with your other 9 points, though.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#77

Post by profgubler »

zalew wrote: post #22
lenni wrote: post #2

Question for the Americans: Is soccer really on the brink of becoming a popular sport in your country? I read that ESPN is investing lots of money into the world cup coverage and reddit is full of related submissions.

follow-up question - did David Beckham become a real star and popularized football in the US?

I think his wife became more popular here than he did, because of her show. You can't transplant greatness to get Americans interested in a sport. They must be american, and Americans who constantly beat up on Europeans like Lance Armstrong is always good for American ratings, even if overall Americas interest in cycling is only superficial. But, Lance did make it a lot bigger.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#78

Post by yardie »

edanm wrote: post #64

One of the reasons Poker is so popular is that even a terrible player can beat a pro by chance, some of the time. I've always suspected the same is true of Football. Any attempt to "fix" the game by making refereeing better makes the game more fair. While that might seem like a good thing, I don't think anyone is qualified to decide whether that will make the game more or less popular. And considering it's the world'…

I have only ever seen this true in movies. A newbie doesn't know how to count cards, feel out bluffs, or develop a strategy. Given enough money and time they'll feel their way around the unspoken rules. But no one I know rolls up to a table pulls a royal flush and walks out away the winner.

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#79

Post by fserb »

bukkake wrote: post #58
fserb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems you are not very familiar with soccer rules. Just a few comments: 1,3. is already true. There is post-morten review, we do see red-cards being cancelled and players being suspended all the time. 4. It is like this already. FIFA rules says that "when in doubt, favor the offense". 5. There has been some national championships with 2 field referees, it didn't noticeably improve the quality of the calls. FIFA al…

Simply put, there is insufficient and non-timely post-mortem review. Kaka's red card should have already been canceled and the CIV player suspended. Italy's dive against NZ for the PK should have already generated a post-mortem yellow. As far as multiple referees goes, it's simply a matter of having greater field coverage in the area of view. It also reduces referee fatigue. It's a no-brainer and is the norm for just…

I didn't mean to be disingenuous on my comment. I was trying to point out that suggesting more fine grained subjective rules conflicts with saying everything is anarchic because it may be subjective.

It's obvious that sports evolve. I think my overall feeling about this is that soccer IS evolving. Just not in that particular direction you and many others seem to want (i.e., more clear less-subjective rules, cameras, etc...).

Re: How Not to Fix Soccer

#80

Post by dagw »

yardie wrote: post #73
ErrantX wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time it next time this happens. Barring injury a game does not frequently stop for a full 30 seconds, even when contentious decisions happen. And in cases where it does I wouldn't want to see it stopped even longer. One of the attractions of the game is that the referee is the law; he makes a decision on his best judgement and that is the game. I see your point; and it has merit. But I think it really detracts from t…

Cheating (especially diving) already detracts from the game. On top of that you have refs given god-like powers to determine a game with their human shortcomings. Already, I can't take the world cup seriously. 2006, it was the Italians diving to get free penalty kicks. Now, I can't even trust the refs to make honest calls. I'll continue to watch the games until something better comes along.

For me the ubiquitous level of diving is one of the huge detractions for the sport, and no I don't subscribe to the school of thought that diving is part of the game. In my dream world there would be a 12 month ban on any player caught diving. After each game, the refs go through all the footage of the game's fouls, and any player that even looks like he's diving gets banned. If you didn't break a bone or tear a ligament, pick yourself up and stop fucking whining.
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