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Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#151

Post by stouset »

wvenable wrote: post #117
eridius wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you're trying to say that Google's answer is better, right? Google's certainly being more authoritative, but the answer to your question is actually fairly subjective, there's more answers than just "Edam", so IMO surfacing search results is better than just having Google pick one answer. Google's also been known to produce completely incorrect "authoritative" answers.

If you are speaking to your device for this kind of question, the authoritative answer is what you want. You expect me, after taking to my device, to go over and pick it up and search through web results? If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have asked the question by voice in the first place!

I believe you have failed to understand the original point you are replying to.

"Edam" might be authoritative, but it is not correct. The problem isn't simply that the answer is fundamentally subjective, the bigger issue is that there's not enough contextual information in the question to even arrive at an answer that one could consider subjectively correct.

I replied elsewhere, but it's like answering the question "What wine would pair well with dinner?" with "Zinfandel". Without having even a vague idea of what's on the menu, you're just picking a wine at random. Maybe it's correct, maybe it isn't. But being authoritative when there's not enough information to actually speak with authority is not the right answer here.

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#152

Post by abritinthebay »

kartD wrote: post #149
abritinthebay wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this fundamentally misunderstands how each of their AI's work. You're describing an interface problem. Google's AI is extremely good at recognizing speech in comparison to Siri but that's a wholly different thing to deep understanding. Siri is a more advanced AI in many ways due to it's understanding of intents. Google's is much more command based (under the hood). However Apple's speech recognition is letting…

So what would be an advantage of Apple's system (assuming they improve speech recognition) and how would that contrast with Google's approach?

The power to create connections between things of the underlying system is greater.

Basically if Apple actually manages to get the voice recognition part down (so it parses intent/structure rather than just pure words) it'll be very powerful.

Right now Apple has a frontend that is more suitable for a command-based system and Google has a frontend that is better for am intent based system.

It's easier to improve the frontend than create a better backend though. So that's the competitive trade-off that Google has made.

I actually think it was smart of Google, and quite un-Apple like of Apple to do it the way they did. Usually they are very focused on the interface as well.

Then again, at the time, Siri was quite good at that. It's just Google focused on it (clearly).

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#153

Post by akoncius »

tacomonstrous wrote: post #45
Grazester wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(and by proxy, Android, thanks to the Google Play Store monopoly on app distribution) have seemingly permanently tipped the scales towards iOS at this point." Do you even know what you are talking about? On an Android phone you could install other App stores and side load apps. You can't do any of this on iOS.

I think the argument is that app distribution is controlled by Apple on iOS and by Google on Android, and GP is happier ceding control to the former but not so much the latter. As Google Play Services become more entrenched in the basic functioning of the OS and apps on the platform, it becomes harder to extricate Google out of the Android experience, even if one has the ability to use other app stores. I think it's…

exactly, recently android was developed in a way that it's impossible to disable some core services which are directly associated with google services, so AOSP as such is almost impossible to exist separately from google.

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#154

Post by abritinthebay »

CaptSpify wrote: post #92
abritinthebay wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't. You have only control over the former. History has shown us time and time again you don't have control over the latter.

How do you have control over the former? Data is being gleamed about you even if you aren't using their products, and it's being used by companies you haven't authorized all the time.

I didn't say complete control. That's... well... not actually possible (ever, since time began really, if someone can see you they can track data about you).

But you can have reasonable control of it and you can't with the latter.

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#156

Post by mercutio2 »

Grazester wrote: post #35
darrmit wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. I switched between Android and iOS for years because I enjoyed aspects of both, but the privacy concerns around Google (and by proxy, Android, thanks to the Google Play Store monopoly on app distribution) have seemingly permanently tipped the scales towards iOS at this point.

"(and by proxy, Android, thanks to the Google Play Store monopoly on app distribution) have seemingly permanently tipped the scales towards iOS at this point." Do you even know what you are talking about? On an Android phone you could install other App stores and side load apps. You can't do any of this on iOS.

You can side load apps to which you have the source code on iOS, for free.

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#157

Post by abritinthebay »

yincrash wrote: post #150
abritinthebay wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel this fundamentally misunderstands how each of their AI's work. You're describing an interface problem. Google's AI is extremely good at recognizing speech in comparison to Siri but that's a wholly different thing to deep understanding. Siri is a more advanced AI in many ways due to it's understanding of intents. Google's is much more command based (under the hood). However Apple's speech recognition is letting…

This morning I told my Google Home "Can you turn your volume all the way up?" and it did it. It maxed the volume, not just turned it up a little bit. To me, this indicates that the Google Assistant is actually pretty good at understanding intent and not just repeating exact commands. Or maybe _I'm_ just misunderstanding your definition of 'commands' and 'intents'.

I mean.. that's a command for sure.

This is where a good UI can obscure the underlying thing though. Google is trying to find intent via the text of speech and that's one way to go about it for sure. It's totally valid. It's more limited, but it'll work great if there is a command that it can match it to.

But there has to be an underlying single command that is "turn volume up"

With an intent based system you can chain complex intents together and the result is the behavior of those intents interaction.

It's... ugh, I'm explaining this poorly.

Think of intents as building blocks to create something from whereas commands are just specific things. I wish I could explain this better.

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#158

Post by wvenable »

stouset wrote: post #151
wvenable wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are speaking to your device for this kind of question, the authoritative answer is what you want. You expect me, after taking to my device, to go over and pick it up and search through web results? If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't have asked the question by voice in the first place!

I believe you have failed to understand the original point you are replying to. "Edam" might be authoritative, but it is not correct . The problem isn't simply that the answer is fundamentally subjective, the bigger issue is that there's not enough contextual information in the question to even arrive at an answer that one could consider subjectively correct. I replied elsewhere, but it's like answering the question…

The agent should then ask for more information; not point me to a web search. In most cases, the authoritative answer is what I'm looking for and the question less likely to be this subjective.

The thing is Siri won't give me an answer either way.

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#159

Post by beachbum8029 »

pwython wrote: post #51
macinjosh wrote: post #3

I am an Apple fanboy but I am also a privacy fanboy. As AI, IoT, and consumer tracking continue to invade our daily lives I think Apple will continue to do quite well if they maintain there pro-privacy heading. Privacy is a feature, it's something people want, and unfortunately its becoming a luxury. That is something that attracts Apple's customers.

I'm one of the few in the "tech world" that isn't so much pro-privacy. Google can read my email, Apple can track my movements, my Amazon Echo can even listen in when it wants. The end result is a huge benefit to me. How is any AI supposed to know what I want, if I try to be an anonymous user? I prefer targeted ads. I prefer submitting my information to "robots" in the hopes that my user experience is tailored to what…

How much do they pay you?

Re: Apple is struggling to become an AI powerhouse

#160

Post by markeroon »

s73ver wrote: post #90
pwython wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the few in the "tech world" that isn't so much pro-privacy. Google can read my email, Apple can track my movements, my Amazon Echo can even listen in when it wants. The end result is a huge benefit to me. How is any AI supposed to know what I want, if I try to be an anonymous user? I prefer targeted ads. I prefer submitting my information to "robots" in the hopes that my user experience is tailored to what…

Except Apple shows that you don't have to sacrifice privacy. Just about all of their ML stuff happens on the device. So you can have things that are quite similar to what Google gives you, without giving up that privacy.

You gotta train on something though
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