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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#601

Post by t_brah »

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #579
t_brah wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible for both things to be true at once: * For women to have strength & agency * For external circumstances & socialization to have impacts on individuals But what I don't understand is how you can maintain simultaneously that women are strong & have agency, but must receive corrective action sensitive to gender-differentiated effects. Are the strong women you're thinking of incapable of overcoming societal…

From a societal perspective, it would be honorable to right a wrong on behalf of the victim. Sure they may lift themselves up out of their own predicament, but it may not be necessary.

So long as our society rights wrongs reactively I see no problem with this.

A society righting wrongs proactively will never run out of wrongs to right.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#602

Post by weberc2 »

devnonymous wrote: post #518
complexmango wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it. What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of attention, regardless of other men OR women around them? I don't understand this need to idolize one sex over the other, when the issue is that some people (like this moderator) are just more tone deaf or inconsiderate than others. Equality between sexes impl…

> That precludes the breed of jerks who will talk over anybody that will tolerate it So are you claiming that those sort of jerks are not going to be extra nasty to women that will tolerate it? That they are going to be equally nasty to people of both sexes? If that's what you're claiming, I'll humbly disagree but won't engage any further. > What makes you think there aren't women who also like to claim the center of…

This has been my experience. My wife claims the opposite experience; people (male or female) who are usually rude to men are less prone to be rude to her or other women. Of course, being more of a jerk to men than to women is, apparently, the worst kind of sexism and the very reason women need feminism. Or something.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#603

Post by masondixon »

Houshalter wrote: post #315

I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men. That is a stereotype, but sometimes there's truth in stereotypes. I mean I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling. So if a person is speaking over you and rambling on, perhaps a man is more likely to speak up or butt in at the first opportunity. The quote in the top comment…

> I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling.

The issue I see is that a lot of these issues are just about being in "a minority group". But a lot of complaints are levelled against the "male gender". This is sexist. Everything else is not.

Sexism has to be when people are treated differently solely because of their sex. In the tech world and corporate world, there is often a large imbalance between male and female, so that the treatment of a minority group appears sexist, because females are usually the minority.

The best test is to reverse the groupings and apply the same test.

When you think about it like this, it becomes less about "men" being somehow inherently bad which is a gross generalisation, and more about "humans are terrible people sometimes". But the issue with the latter statement is its not easy where to throw the blame.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#604

Post by orbitingpluto »

devmunchies wrote: post #581
orbitingpluto wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was countering one strawman argument with another. Please realize that the bar to meet here isn't violence, it's professional and courtesy.

When did I advocate violence? I was trying to take a step back by suggesting that there may be no sexism involved here. Its a valid point.

You didn't. I don't think you did. It was just a reverse moving goalposts argument to suggest that both propositions were wrong.

But "if men are 3x as likely to interrupt women" is literally an example of sexism... the likelihood of interrupting a woman over interrupting a man.

Sexism IS a biological tendency. There is no rational basis for it when scientists are contributing to something as esoteric as string theory. This story overwhelmingly demonstrates how absurd sexism can get.

In any case it is perfectly acceptable to shame someone when they are being rude and excluding someone one from contributing. Especially when that someone is an expert.

The reason why I think she did not take any affront is because she already understands the subject matter. She's motivated not only in understanding herself, but in determining and helping others to comprehend. She can't actually engage in a proper discussion until she realizes that her counterpart also understands the material. When things get complicated, you have to continually establish a common basis for discussion which requires fostering patience.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#605

Post by masondixon »

dismantlethesun wrote: post #458
anjc wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't watch the full discussion but I think it's fair to say that "let her speak please" was not the most important thing said that day. How big headed is this person that she thinks her input was more important than that of the person she's claiming to uplift.

I can see your perspective, and it's pretty reflective of that of the author. However, in reality, I don't think her words empowered the expert speaker at all but simply served as a check on the moderator's exuberance. Those who actually benefitted were the audience---and we the public who get to see the video afterward. The moderator was handling the situation poorly and needed to allow the expert to speak which is…

Sets a good precedent doesn't it?

I hate what this PC culture has become. You have to watch yourself so carefully or you will get publicly shamed like this. And if someone over reacts there is no consequence. Its a race to the bottom.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#606

Post by masondixon »

_lex wrote: post #573
masondixon wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way No true scotsman. If she doesn't agree with your narrative, she is an exception. > the ones who pay attention to how they might be treated differently leave. Because they see sexism when its just normal human behaviour. Why do feminists think its okay to second-guess the male mental and emotional state? As if the same stuff never happe…

> it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way Note I said "it's possible". I did that because I can't prove it. I don't think anybody can prove either possibility. >why do you assume anything is racist in the first place instead of thinking it is just normal human behaviour? I'm not originally from the US, though I live here now. While you may look at me and see a black man, I gre…

But all the things you mentioned could easily happen to a non-Black. I've read tons of Medium posts about this stuff, and everything I read can equally apply to non-Blacks, and as a white I can relate to a lot of what is said. But its so sad that they blame it all on race - something that is 100% unchangeable. Its like as hard as you try - you will always fail. And if you succeed, you were lucky.

It is the most pessimistic and depressing narrative that is forced onto every minority these days.

And at some point its probably a vicious cycle - in that employers become afraid of minorities because they feel that everything will be construed as discrimination. And the minorities have huge power because they can easily play the discrimination card.

Do you see any merit in this?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#608

Post by sampo »

weberc2 wrote: post #362
sampo wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many cases there may be neither. The story tells how the audience applauded to the "let her speak" comment, and how afterwards a large number of people came to thank her for the comment. So in this case it was a large number of people who perceived there being sexism.

Which isn't evidence of much; millions of people assumed Darren Wilson was a racist murderer even after the facts were known. There's a very strong temptation for some people to perceive injustice everywhere.

> millions of people assumed Darren Wilson

Those people only got partial information from whatever media broadcasts they happened to follow. But the link at hand, the audience literally saw with their own eyes what happened in the panel discussion. They have complete information (unless they dozed off for a while).

Re: “Let her speak please”

#609

Post by masondixon »

aggie wrote: post #386
weberc2 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was plainly speaking figuratively...

I'd be charitable to their claim if they left it at 'every time', but to say the incidents are not due to sexism 'at all' is not a good argument, even interpreted figuratively.

> 'every time'

...is clearly figuratively as the commenter mentioned.

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