“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#451

Post by ShannonAlther » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

vog wrote: post #438

ShannonAlther wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you did, but then you said that the solution is to reform society so that informal social rules are never broken. And I'm saying that unless you want to make those rules into laws, or something like laws, it's not doable.

I still don't get it. Who said that informal social rules shall never never broken? Who talked about reforming society? I was just talking about making cultural progress. All I said is that informal rules are established (almost by definition) by reacting to those who break them. Doing so reduces the chances that these are broken again, which is just another way of saying that these informal rules are established. An…

"Are you saying we should fix when people geek out about a topic and ramble?"

"It may be uncomfortable, but it's the only way to make cultural progress."

And you've really only explained what tacit rules are and how they're enforced, but we knew that already so bully, I guess? The guy talked over her because he was excited and therefore not thinking about the consequences.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#452

Post by justin_vanw » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

Like half of this was talking about how the male was not letting the female asking the question (the male sounds like a bad interviewer for sure), and the other half was about how everyone 'literally applauded' what the author did. Sadly none of it was about the woman who was not allowed to speak or what she said... I get the point, the rest of the audience didn't say anything, but on the other hand 'literally shaking' is maybe not a reasonable response to someone being (probably inadvertently) rude, really no matter why the person is being rude.

I don't know how to write this without sounding like I in any way would defend sexism in any form, I mean maybe I should show I'm not sexist by piling on the male on stage and breaking out the pitch-fork or something.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#453

Post by pyroinferno » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

orcdork wrote: post #243

trendia wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills

What about the possibility that if someone is being a douchebag, blaming their shitty behaviour on the "bad at social skills" strawman is not an excuse any more (or ever was).

But a lot of the times it is the case.

In SJW-speak, "You sound like an ableist who's trying to project your better social skills onto others".

Re: “Let her speak please”

#454

Post by fav_collector » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

jlebar wrote: post #369

Houshalter wrote: post #315

I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men. That is a stereotype, but sometimes there's truth in stereotypes. I mean I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling. So if a person is speaking over you and rambling on, perhaps a man is more likely to speak up or butt in at the first opportunity. The quote in the top comment…

> I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men. If this has been your experience, I'd encourage you to consider why that might be the case. Here's one possibility: Perhaps in our culture, assertive women are treated worse than assertive men.

Or that non-assertive women are treated well and non-assertive men are treated poorly. Men have to learn to be assertive to be treated as well as women.

You can see this dynamic in the dating world where non-assertive men are the losers of the game.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#455

Post by randomguy23 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #269

randomguy23 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

Everything will look like sexism, including real sexism. This is like basic thinking skills 101 here. Let's simplify. Let's say you perceive two rocks, one real and one fake. Just because the fake rock is not real, does not mean the real rock is not real. You're right, perception shapes reality. But apart from perception shaping reality, there is also an underlying reality beyond perception. A real rock is real. In t…

The thing is, a lot of sexists may be doing it for the reaction from the target - with no reaction, the sexist doesn't get that 'thrill' that they would otherwise get. If the reward is consistently denied, the behaviour may (may) go away.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#456

Post by mbfg » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:18 PM UTC

Has Jim Holt or World Science Festival commented officially after the fact? I would have thought this would be a priority by both parties. I don't see anything, but perhaps i'm just missing it.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#457

Post by turc1656 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #376

andrepd wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you watch the rest of the video you will find the moderator imposes himself and cuts off the panellists and talks over them multiple times, seemingly regardless of gender. This makes me strongly inclined to believe that this incident had nothing to do with sexism, but rather with the annoyingly dominant and imposing personality of the moderator. Maybe you think otherwise. Why would you say this incident is a "pain…

Note that behaviours which tend to have disproportionate impact on one gender over another are still sexist, and women often have difficulty interrupting in the way that the men here did.

Nonsense. By your statement, the reason it disproportionately impacts women is not because of some rudimentary, fundamental reason but rather because they fail to react the same way the men did and speak up. That lies 100% on the women.

In fact what YOU wrote is actually sexist, since it suggests that the corrective action would be to act differently toward her, but not the men. Perhaps you might merely argue that he should not behave that way to anyone simply because of the disproportionate impact. But even if that's the case, you are still saying that women are incapable of speaking up for themselves the way the men did to gain their voice back from the moderator. How is either of those scenarios not sexist on your part?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#458

Post by dismantlethesun » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

anjc wrote: post #409

masondixon wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You watch the video?

I didn't watch the full discussion but I think it's fair to say that "let her speak please" was not the most important thing said that day. How big headed is this person that she thinks her input was more important than that of the person she's claiming to uplift.

I can see your perspective, and it's pretty reflective of that of the author.

However, in reality, I don't think her words empowered the expert speaker at all but simply served as a check on the moderator's exuberance.

Those who actually benefitted were the audience---and we the public who get to see the video afterward. The moderator was handling the situation poorly and needed to allow the expert to speak which is what the audience paid for, and everyone is more interested in hearing.

I think the best panels are where the experts talk amongst themselves, and moderators only serve to derail heated arguments that are consuming the allotted time.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#459

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

walterstucco wrote: post #134

Kluny wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were four men on the stage who weren't talked over.

I guess you're not a man (or you don't define yourself as such) I've been talked over by literally everybody, including my dogs and cats

You've been posting unsubstantive "so what?" dismissals, which is trollish when it comes to a divisive topic. Worse, you've crossed into personal attack. That's a bannable offense on HN, so please don't do it again.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#460

Post by fav_collector » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #117

exodust wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's spot on. Unfortunately the swarm of social media opinion in support of the more scornful verdict, is what the news outlets pick up and run with regardless of truth. That said, he was insensitive at the point in question where he should have let her speak. You could sort of tell he was trying to organise and grasp the ideas in his own mind, probably in an effort to stay on top of things. A clumsy moderator mome…

> Let's not forget, she had the right to speak up and say "can I answer the question"... We all have the responsibility and option to guide things back on track if something isn't running smoothly. Don't just sit there waiting for balance to restore, or for the audience to come to rescue, do something about it. Women who do this are very often shamed and called "pushy" or "aggressive" for doing so, even though a man…

> Women who do this are very often shamed and called "pushy" or "aggressive" for doing so, even

Yeah that's not going to happen at a STEM conference with the diversity craziness and witch hunting.

Maybe when hanging out and drinking with people.