“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#321

Post by croon » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:21 PM UTC

mst wrote: post #257

croon wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it: * He was geeking out. True. * There was no ill intent. True. * He wasn't sexist. False. He could geek out all he wanted, but speaking for her multiple times over her trying to get a foot in was very sexist, regardless of intent. I hold the door for guys all the time, but if you're only doing it for "feeble girls" it is telling. This was the case in this panel. She's there because she knows her shit,…

When I'm excited about something I'm prone to talking over everybody , and after realising this was sometimes squeezing people out of conversations where they could provide valuable input I've done my best to learn to catch myself doing this and try and consciously stop and let them talk. What seems to be the case is that men are more likely to interrupt back, so on a population level this does tend to squeeze a high…

> What seems to be the case is that men are more likely to interrupt back, so on a population level this does tend to squeeze a higher percentage of women out - but it doesn't squeeze out the women who're happy to interrupt you back, and it does also squeeze out the quieter men, whose existence and contributions I've also become more aware of as a result.

> So the mistake may not have been gendered on his part, and I'd suggest you think hard about whether you're engaging in benevolent sexism by believing only women can be quieter and more in danger of interrupted.

Aren't these contradictory if you're first saying that women are less likely to interrupt back and then saying it might be in my head?

Either way, your overall point is sound, but she TRIED to interrupt him several time, whereas none of the other panelists had to even try. I'm always questioning myself, but I don't think I'm projecting that interpretation.

I do however agree that obviously quieter people will have less airtime than more extrovert people, regardless of gender.

I think the question is: Do we believe that this is inherent in gender (nature), nurtured in our culture (women's upbringing), or enforced by sexism after the fact (imposed by men as a result of culture/nurture)?

If your hinted statistics are true, then one statement above must be true, unless I excluded an option.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#322

Post by weberc2 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:25 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #301

theWatcher37 wrote: post #288

Outrage culture front and center. Time to pull out our morality antennas and virtue signal how pious we are in support.

> virtue signal Your use of this vapid phrase is itself a form of virtue signalling.

I thought it means "dogwhistling", except for the political left instead of the right?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#323

Post by lawik » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:26 PM UTC

oneoff_147 wrote: post #96

lawik wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that it is as common? Do you believe that the person you are replying to doesn't believe that it ever happens? Does excluding a full disclaimer invalidate his thoughts about trying not to talk over women or dominating conversations? I don't believe it is always necessary to counter-exemplify what you experience as a general trend.

My personal experience, especially through family and to a lesser extent through other acquaintances, is of women dominating conversations and talking over men. I (a man) can't tell you how many times I've had a woman ask me a question and then talk over my answer, or repeatedly interrupt me when I try to participate in a conversation. And I see the same thing happening to other men I know. The men just kind of give…

And what you are writing here is a nuanced comment about differing experiences. Perfectly reasonable.

I'll grant that I've seen both in casual social circumstances. But in this kind of situation, fairly serious and focused around competence/status, I'd say I see women get less space.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#324

Post by blahman2 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:26 PM UTC

By making everything so dramatic you will end up scaring all women away from science.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#325

Post by ajuckel » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #241

ajuckel wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? Sure, it's an additional perspective, but it sounds like you're suggesting it should somehow alter the audience perspective.

She saw it as questioner trying to put on table his understanding of the theory so she can correct him in his understanding. e.g. Mam, you tell me if I got this correctly. This is how I think it works... I think it is actually a position of submission in a discussion, the person who is doing the talking is accepting the higher authority of person doing the listening to find errors in your understanding of the subject…

I don't understand why we're arguing about what the moderator's intent might have been. That seems very much beside the point. I was asking for clarification because it seemed that the post I was replying to was implying that the perspective of the person on the stage should somehow color what we all learn from the Facebook post. I think the person on stage and the people in the audience are all entitled to their own interpretations of the event. I didn't get the impression from the Ms. Talkington's post that she was upset on behalf of the woman on stage. She was upset by her own experience, sitting in the audience.

The point isn't for us to sit here and decide whether or not the moderator's behavior was justified. The point is simply to listen and try to understand another point of view.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#326

Post by ShannonAlther » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

vog wrote: post #215

trendia wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying we should fix when people geek out about a topic and ramble? If so, I agree. But good luck making progress on that!

It may be uncomfortable, but it's the only way to make cultural progress. You should especially take care of that if you have any major position in a larger group, not matter if it is a company department, an open-source project or a user-group. If nobody cares visibly about social behaviour, that group is either doomed and won't achieve anything in the long run. Or it reduces a very low number of active participants…

"Prevent all potentially offensive behaviour" is not a valid solution. What constitutes offense is subjective, and furthermore the topic at hand is sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#327

Post by iiv » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

cmiles74 wrote: post #265

trendia wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spoken to people like this moderator and they just ramble over any topic they get excited about. What specifically makes you think he rambled because she was a woman?

Because he did. He rambled over the only woman.

That he rambled over the only woman does not mean that he rambled over her because she is a woman.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#328

Post by masondixon » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

> I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was rooted in sexism

So who is sexist in this scenario?

Turns out its the feminist in the audience assuming that a woman needs someone to cause a public disturbance because she could not help herself be heard.

Why is it every time some social justice event gains public attention, it turns out to not be sexism/racist/etc. at all.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#329

Post by discombobulate » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

Frqy3 wrote: post #316

discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

Have you been tested for Autism/Asperger's? I ask because I am on the spectrum and have a similar anxiety with how people will think of me during interactions. This stems from a difficulty in reading other people. Over many years I have developed internal scripts of standard behaviour for interacting with people in different circumstances. So long as I am able to stay on script, I have learnt to worry less about what…

I've not been tested. My doctor suggested autism last time I went to see her -- due to the level of detailed research I'd done on a condition.

I do like to think in terms of systems. I used to be good at reading people. I've never heard of anyone becoming autistic. I do take a significant number of medications/supplements for a medical condition. That could be having an effect on my affect.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#330

Post by monksy » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

vog wrote: post #224

golemotron wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. People have different levels of introversion and extroversion. Moderators sometimes over talk introverts when they feel they have to keep things moving. It may not have anything to do with sexism but because the the sexes of the participants it's turned into a conversation that may have no base in the reality of the situation. It is arrogance to assume that we know the mind of another well enough to call thi…

Thanks for the clarification. That's exactly the point I wanted to make. But also note that the moderator called the person from the audience "heckling" just because she made him aware of his inappropriate behaviour. If not sexism, this is at least a clear sign of ignorance.

That is exactly what a heckling is:

> interrupt (a public speaker) with derisive or aggressive comments or abuse.

When a member yells out something from the audience to someone on stage: That's a heckle. They forced a break in the 4th wall. (yes, the audience member was right, but so was the moderator in that small instance)