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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#151
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Youtube comment: He spends 0:40 asking her the first question. He continues talking when she tries to speak once. She talks for 0:30 He redirects her from her answer and tries to clarify what he wants to know for 0:55 She talks for 1:00 answering this question He begins clarifying/providing an example of what she is saying for 0:20, continuing to talk when she tries to speak once. It is during this interruption tha…

Contrast this to Holt's behavior for the rest of the video when interacting with the men on the panel and it is quite clear that his bias was not subconscious, but rather that he is just an asshole.

I have not watched the full video, are you saying he was an ass to everyone, or he only acted that way to her, and thus any sexism was not subconscious but intended?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#152
post #126

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

I tend to be sympathetic to the original poster of the story, it sounds like the woman was treated differently, and an expert being talked over like that by a host is ridiculous. It does indeed sound like an example of sexism. This probably marks me as an ignorant oppressor, but I do find this style of telling a story to be a bit confusing and off-putting though. Why all the references to "with my hands shaking" and…

> Why all the references to "with my hands shaking" and "I'm feeling light headed" and so on?

A weighty argument these days is one with an emotional punch. When was the last time that a presidential debate was about well reasoned points? Are the reposted John Oliver clips the ones that cite the best evidence?

People instinctively share their feelings about an issue because that's how they get to be heard and listened to.

The risk is that the case being made ends up being very convincing to the people who empathise and off-putting to people who don't. I think this thread demonstrates that.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I never felt discriminated against or thwarted in my calling This just goes to prove my stance whenever the whole women in STEM fields debate is brought up. You have two kinds of women, those who are out there doing science, building things and being badasses (The likes of Veronika and Julia Evans, ones I consider as role-models) and then you have women that have questionable technical skills who keep whining about…

Veronika stated quite clearly that sexism in STEM is an issue. Julia Evans has wrote in bulk regarding issues she has experienced and ways she is trying to get more women in STEM.

I didn't say the two categories are mutually exclusive. But you can notice where the bulk of each person's efforts is directed.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#155

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

If someone "fucks up" with women but not men, even if not intentional, is that not sexism?

it is if its the only thing you're looking for it but if you're not then there are countless possibilities. One of which being that he'd read up on her work, was excited about it and blurted it out accidentally instead of letting her talk about it.

If there was a second woman on the panel then we'd have greater clarity about making the assertion if he behaved the same way. Sadly there wasn't which means that we should be cautious about labelling it as out and out sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that this only happened to the only female scientist who was part of the panel.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that the moderator began to ramble when he started talking about a topic that he was particularly excited about and which he was not particularly knowledgeable about.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women.

I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct each other because this stuff is laid so deep in our cultural consciousness that catching ourselves every time by ourselves is not reasonable to expect.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#157
post #149
post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

I think it was really valuable to surface the feelings of the person who was the target of this discussion. It changes the perspective of the incident.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up.

Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad that many of those inspired shared their gratitude with you.

I guess that, being the subject of the incident, it might be worthwhile to offer my perspective, which to my surprise is rather more atypical than I had hitherto realized, but which I hope might perhaps provide some encouragement to all those who feel put off by the present situation — especially to those who feel drawn to science yet dissuaded from following their hearts’ calling. (For posterity I also feel compelled to correct a point about the physics — as a physicist I can’t help myself wink emoticon;-) — but since I realize that that was entirely beside the point of the post, I’ll only do so at the very end…)

You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was rooted in sexism. Maybe I’m too naive, but I simply gave him the benefit of doubt that he was so excited by the newly-learned idea of the duality that he couldn’t resist, and that the same might have occurred had the panelist been a male instead of me. So it didn’t bother me.

In fact, even though in my entire academic career I was in an environment where women were in striking minority (and as a student often the only woman in the class), I never felt discriminated against or thwarted in my calling. The feeling was rather one of camaraderie: the challenges to unravel the deepest mysteries of the universe, the thrill in understanding another tiny bit of this grand puzzle, and the sheer wonder at how beautifully the physics hangs together, put us all in the same boat, so to speak. In retrospect I think I was fortunate in being amongst like-minded physicists who were not only great but gracious and earnest in their love of science. But when I eventually did start coming across others who were not of the same caliber, they somehow seemed insignificant.

I had early on decided that I like physics so much that I’d be quite willing to give up quite a bit of other comforts for it, but perhaps having made that decision and bracing oneself, then made the actual “discomforts” not only more bearable, but genuinely less discomforting. I think the subjective severity of a lot of these issues can be greatly influenced by one’s mindset, one’s psychology. If you allow yourself to enjoy the beautiful things that really matter, if you don’t let social or peer pressure dissuade you from pursuing a field which appeals to you, then no pettiness or childishness or boorishness that you encounter can harm you so much.

Please understand that I’m not trying to say that sexism in science is a myth. It is real and we should all aspire to diminish it. But I am trying to say that it need not pose as much of an impediment as you might fear and that you might be in more control over its influence yourself than you might think. Just as you put up with long lines to see a great show, or with sore feet or mosquitos to have a great hike etc., the annoyance of otherwise abominable behavior diminishes in the larger perspective of doing something you really enjoy.

OK, so now to the physics (sorry): First, what you refer to as the “two theories of string theory that seem to contradict one another” are actually two ‘dual’ descriptions of the same physics, which while curiously different in rather amazing ways, are completely consistent with each other (one using the language of string theory, the other of a field theory). Second, I cannot take credit for inventing this holographic (so-called AdS/CFT) correspondence — I have worked on understanding how it works at a deeper level, but the AdS/CFT was originated by Juan Maldacena in 1997.

Once again, let me stress my appreciation, Marilee, of how you bravely stood up for your principles and values! Well done!

Re: “Let her speak please”

#158

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

It's very likely both, and out of all the panelists she did seemingly have fewer chances to speak. So in this isolated case, a surface evaluation of some gender bias being involved isn't completely outrageous. It doesn't by any means indicate that he's a bad person.

its certainly not outrageous but its also hard to make the claim with any strong probably as there could be many factors that led to the outcome.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#159
I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him.

I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women.

I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individual differences are larger than differences between race. I would be inflicting an incorrect model of the world on myself.

Does anyone have any advice on how to think about the issue? Is becoming a racist the best solution, so I'm able to function more effectively? (So I can disregard my concerns and carry on working toward what I feel is valuable.)

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