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Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

bbc.co.uk

61–70 of 147 posts

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why storing everything on everyone is a terrible idea. Perhaps we need to embrace the Panopticon instead of resisting it. Really store everything on everyone and make it _available_ to _everyone_ instead of the privileged few. Make only one rule on access control: it is forbidden to refuse access. Edit: on -> one

If we ever come to live in such a dystopian society I'm going to use our new found peeping power to mark political enemies and remove them all in a night of the long knives stile ordeal then overthrow the government and burn everything to the ground.

But the panopticon also stares right back at you.

Your political enemies can also use it to google you up, find what you're up to, and night-of-the-long-knives you first. You've already blown it by writing this post, so it's on Your Permanent Record For All To See.

Once the panopticon's switched on, YOUR first priority, Sunset, is to make sure you don't have any enemies who care enough to check out your posting history, because once they hit this post, you're toast. Concentrate on being super-nice to everyone you meet for the rest of your life.

See how this works? You're already out of the running as Evil Dictator Overlord. This everyone-sees-everything society is starting to look a bit less dystopian than it first appears!

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#62
post #38

The output of the intelligence community is surprisingly low. One director of the NSA said, pre-9/11, that the whole organization generated about one important result every two days, one that was acted upon. The output of the US's domestic anti-terrorism effort is low for the resources invested. Most of the FBI's terrorism arrests are wannabes. They get a report of somebody mouthing off in a bar or mosque, crank up a…

The high effort to acquire relatively little information also leads to a higher certainty about there being not much more you'd have to know.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#63
post #28
post #18

Silly article, the revelations of Edward Snowden shouldn't really tell anyone much about the capability of spies, nothing we didn't already know. If you're interested in a good book about the technical history of the CIA check out 'The Wizards of Langley'. It gives a pretty accurate history of the technical ability of spies throughout the years, and the bureaucracy which limited them. https://www.amazon.com/Wizards-L…

>Silly article, the revelations of Edward Snowden shouldn't really tell anyone much about the capability of spies i absolutely loathe when people say things like this. people would nearly without exception treat you like a lunatic if you talked about the kinds of capabilities revealed by snowden prior to 2013. making references to ECHELON made plenty of people write me off as a paranoid crank. the ex post facto 'ever…

Everybody had _heard_ of this, maybe. Everybody in the tech community at least. Or let's just say enough people that some people feel like everybody did.

However when I heard of this, everybody also knew this was just a conspiracy theory. The NSA records everything -- Hello, NSA person who inevitably reads this -- sure, but c'mon they wouldn't actually store any of it or even pay attention as long as you didn't use trigger words. And even then you knew they wouldn't actually listen to your conversation because why would they care about some rando on the internet.

So, no, everyone didn't know the NSA was doing what Snowden said they were doing. It just sounded familiar enough that it seemed like it wasn't news. I think the conspiracy theories (or leaks?) may have actually softened the blow of the revelations. "Oh, I guess the conspiracy theories were right. Huh, who'd have thought. Anyway, how's your sex life?". People carried on as if nothing happened.

I swear if we somehow found out that there really were aliens in Area 51 all along, techies would derail every conversation about it by pointing out how everyone already knew this. And the common man probably wouldn't even freak out because it doesn't sound like news.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#64
post #63
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Silly article, the revelations of Edward Snowden shouldn't really tell anyone much about the capability of spies i absolutely loathe when people say things like this. people would nearly without exception treat you like a lunatic if you talked about the kinds of capabilities revealed by snowden prior to 2013. making references to ECHELON made plenty of people write me off as a paranoid crank. the ex post facto 'ever…

Everybody had _heard_ of this, maybe. Everybody in the tech community at least. Or let's just say enough people that some people feel like everybody did. However when I heard of this, everybody also knew this was just a conspiracy theory. The NSA records everything -- Hello, NSA person who inevitably reads this -- sure, but c'mon they wouldn't actually store any of it or even pay attention as long as you didn't use t…

> sure, but c'mon they wouldn't actually store any of it or even pay attention as long as you didn't use trigger words

How did you think they were listening for the trigger words?

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#65
post #63
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Silly article, the revelations of Edward Snowden shouldn't really tell anyone much about the capability of spies i absolutely loathe when people say things like this. people would nearly without exception treat you like a lunatic if you talked about the kinds of capabilities revealed by snowden prior to 2013. making references to ECHELON made plenty of people write me off as a paranoid crank. the ex post facto 'ever…

Everybody had _heard_ of this, maybe. Everybody in the tech community at least. Or let's just say enough people that some people feel like everybody did. However when I heard of this, everybody also knew this was just a conspiracy theory. The NSA records everything -- Hello, NSA person who inevitably reads this -- sure, but c'mon they wouldn't actually store any of it or even pay attention as long as you didn't use t…

> sure, but c'mon they wouldn't actually store any of it or even pay attention as long as you didn't use trigger words

They had to listen to all of it to listen for the trigger words.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#66
Not sure what the author's point is. That all spies are incompetent? KGB infiltrated UK's intelligence establishment successfully, got the plans for the nuclear bomb and the space shuttle etc. etc. So clearly at least one organization is not completely without merit. Maybe he means specifically UK's spies? If so his anecdotes are not very convincing.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#67
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I immediately thought of Peter Wright's bio [1]: > The Registry employed enormous numbers of girls to maintain efficient delivery of files within the building, as well as the massive task of sorting, checking, and filing the incoming material. In Kell's day the Registry Queens, as they were known, were recruited either from the aristocracy or from the families of MI5 officers. Kell had a simple belief that this was t…

Another example: Cameron. Led us into Brexit due to a massive miscalculation. Not a capable man but the Brits insist on picking leaders from a few thousand upper-class twits. His Chancellor and Eton chum was also a disaster.

Actually, by traditional definitions definitions Cameron is middle class, very upper middle class, but middle class.

His father actually worked for a living and he probably had to buy his own furniture...

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#68
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read Tim Weiner's book 10 years ago...it was great. Am currently reading his book on the FBI. To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. At the time I was pretty shocked how bad it was at the COA, but then I realized...the CIA is really just a metaphor for how large organizations everywhere run. A good example is how assignments are given out in the CIA. Your career progression very much depends on whi…

> To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. Stefan Rudnicki (the narrator) is an absurdly good narrator. He regularly narrates the Lightspeed Magazine podcast, a sci-fi short story podcast, if that perchance interests you.

Sometimes he and Wayne June just go too deep though. All you can hear on certain words is a bass rumble...

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being secret means there is no way you need to follow any standards or reviews. So your work ethic must not be very high. I'm not following the link between "you don't need standards/reviews" and "your work ethic must not be very high" -- could you elaborate, please? Or was this a typo?

Yes, I can elaborate. Standards are a set of procedures to cooperate and provide a certain level of minimum quality. For many single person hackers not having standards may result in much better quality, but for teams of people who do this because they need to pay rent the quality is always pointed towards the possible minimum, not maximum. Therefore standards usually improve the work of paid teams. But standards are…

The same argumentation is usually used to argue that people have to be in the office or they won't do work - it's wrong in that case, it is wrong in this case. People often do good work without being forced to.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#70

This comment is more amusing than educational, but for anyone who hasn't already, I recommend watching the Coen Brothers movie Burn After Reading. When you watch it, you get the strong sense that this, rather than Jason Bourne or James Bond, is the movie that comes the closest to depicting what the intelligence community is actually like: nobody knows anything and everyone's bumbling about helplessly while they prete…

There's a beautiful exchange at the end of the movie:

JK Simmons: What did we learn, Palmer?

Aide: I dont know sir.

JK Simmons: I don't fucking know either.

JK Simmons: I guess we learned, not to do it again.

Aide: Yes sir.

JK Simmons: I'm fucked if I know what we did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlA9hmrC8DU (spoilers in the video)

EDIT: (Also RT has the quotes mostly wrong..)

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