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Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

bbc.co.uk

31–40 of 147 posts

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#31
post #6

I recently finished reading Legacy of Ashes by Tim Weiner, a history of the CIA. He basically argues that the entire organization has been marked by incompetence and politics throughout history. It was really eye-opening to me to hear that the mysterious organization behind all conspiracy theories is mostly smoke and mirrors. Cue the old adage regarding malice and stupidity.

I read Tim Weiner's book 10 years ago...it was great. Am currently reading his book on the FBI. To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator.

At the time I was pretty shocked how bad it was at the COA, but then I realized...the CIA is really just a metaphor for how large organizations everywhere run. A good example is how assignments are given out in the CIA. Your career progression very much depends on which region you get assigned to, or which embassy you get official cover wth. Very similar to say how sales territories are handed out and fought over at regular corporations.

Having just left a 100k+ person company, I can tell you it's a miracle of organization that a company that big can function. It's kind of like seeing a person weighing 1000 pounds trying to walk, or a 125 yr old man try to cross the street. The fact that they can exist / operate is awe-inspiring, expecting them to do anywhere near a good job seems to be out of the question. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and I hope more of them appear later on.

If you work at a big company though please don't be discouraged. It's almost impossible to have good processes for a company that big as mentioned above, so things are, ironically, even more dependent on people's actions and personal leadership.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#32
post #3

I worked as a technician for GCHQ twenty years ago and heard some good stories in the London Office at Palmer Street (loose lips guys!) it was so obvious that wearing the right tie or being a Freemason would get you further than any degree in this circle. But lets face it, it's the same at the top levels of all civil service they are all really just job clubs for people with Latin and History degrees.

Sir Humphrey ?

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#33
post #3

I worked as a technician for GCHQ twenty years ago and heard some good stories in the London Office at Palmer Street (loose lips guys!) it was so obvious that wearing the right tie or being a Freemason would get you further than any degree in this circle. But lets face it, it's the same at the top levels of all civil service they are all really just job clubs for people with Latin and History degrees.

As much crap as people give the civil servants in the US, I feel like our government does a pretty reasonable job at finding competent employees. I'm from Chicago, so I definitely know how false that statement can be, but most other places in the world seem a lot more about who your parents were and who you know. I mean, the social stratification of the public/private school thing is somewhat baffling to me, as someo…

Oh come off it. Most of the world is this way; if not who you know, it's often just plain old bribes.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#34
This is all covered in _great_ detail in "The Defence of the Realm: The Authorized History of MI5", by Christopher Anderw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm - this article is a nice summary of that book.

The book goes into _lots_ more detail, including the CIA/Angleton side of all this.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#35
post #31
post #6

I recently finished reading Legacy of Ashes by Tim Weiner, a history of the CIA. He basically argues that the entire organization has been marked by incompetence and politics throughout history. It was really eye-opening to me to hear that the mysterious organization behind all conspiracy theories is mostly smoke and mirrors. Cue the old adage regarding malice and stupidity.

I read Tim Weiner's book 10 years ago...it was great. Am currently reading his book on the FBI. To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. At the time I was pretty shocked how bad it was at the COA, but then I realized...the CIA is really just a metaphor for how large organizations everywhere run. A good example is how assignments are given out in the CIA. Your career progression very much depends on whi…

> To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator.

Stefan Rudnicki (the narrator) is an absurdly good narrator. He regularly narrates the Lightspeed Magazine podcast, a sci-fi short story podcast, if that perchance interests you.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Britain we have state schools, private schools and most expensive of all the old 'public schools', with a name almost designed to confuse. Most of them are ancient, and look a bit like Hogwarts. The real power of the schools is the 'old boys network'. When you need help getting into university, or beginning a career, there will be an old boy of your school you can write to for help. It seems daft in 2017, but ex p…

Nameless resumes are a good way to counter the inefficiencies of a system not based on merit.

How does a nameless resume help if you haven't removed schools, class, year of graduation, grades and all the other signifiers correlated with free-time and networks.

And that's smoothing over the little problems of the jobs not being open for competition in the first place, not being item for competition once they've been appointed, and that no one has yet to come up with an agreed upon definition for what meritocracy even is...

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#37
post #27

The older I get, the more I realize: pretty much every organization everywhere is highly flawed in some (usually many) ways. This has been an extremely useful observation in my career and life, and I have found exactly zero exceptions.

Primary reason that I don't buy into elaborate conspiracy theories right here.

Also, I think watching the Trump presidency be leaked against en mass goes some way to showing how difficult it is to keep anything nefarious hidden.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#38
The output of the intelligence community is surprisingly low. One director of the NSA said, pre-9/11, that the whole organization generated about one important result every two days, one that was acted upon.

The output of the US's domestic anti-terrorism effort is low for the resources invested. Most of the FBI's terrorism arrests are wannabes. They get a report of somebody mouthing off in a bar or mosque, crank up a sting operation, get some dummy to go through the motions of trying something, and claim they've stopped a terrorist.

The DoD/CIA operation to find foreign terrorist leaders and kill them seems to have paid off. Anybody identified as a major leader in Al-Queda has a short life expectancy.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#39

This comment is more amusing than educational, but for anyone who hasn't already, I recommend watching the Coen Brothers movie Burn After Reading. When you watch it, you get the strong sense that this, rather than Jason Bourne or James Bond, is the movie that comes the closest to depicting what the intelligence community is actually like: nobody knows anything and everyone's bumbling about helplessly while they prete…

Similarly: Politics is Veep not House of Cards.

Rather, politics is Veep while thinking they're as clever and devious as House of Cards.

Re: Bugger: Maybe spies aren't very good at their jobs (2013)

#40

The older I get, the more I realize: pretty much every organization everywhere is highly flawed in some (usually many) ways. This has been an extremely useful observation in my career and life, and I have found exactly zero exceptions.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity/incompetence".
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