Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills • Hacker News Board

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#141

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 11:56 AM UTC

xaa wrote: post #133

ThomPete wrote: post #131

Critical thinking is an important skill but I'd like to caution against this fixation on critical thinking thought in collage as some sort of beacon for society. Critical thinking is something people develop over the years and it starts early IMO. It's not just a 4 year course. It's a whole approach to the world around you. There are many critical thinkers in my experience outside of collage. And I don't see it a pro…

> In my view critical thinking without constructive thinking is as big a problem as no critical thinking. I disagree. I see critical thinking as a prerequisite for constructive thinking. Without the ability to identify problems, you can't offer solutions. I and many fellow students in grad school went through exactly this evolution. First, you are taught to be critical and skeptical of everything. But at some point,…

Well by definition it can't be a prerequisite.

Constructive thinking must have come first otherwise there was nothing to think critically about :)

Joke aside:

Critical Thinking isn't going to save the world. It's a fallacy in the same line of; if only people were more rational or more logical.

It has it's uses but it also has it's mis-uses.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#142

Post by xchip » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 11:58 AM UTC

Critical thinking skills are not taught because they teach you how to question authority, and that means criticizing parents, teachers and the system.

Socrates already tried doing that and was accused of corrupting youth (and got him condemned to death)

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#143

Post by pas » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:01 PM UTC

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #102

i have several questions here: - how does one measure critical thinking in a survey? The article doesn't say so. - The humanities/liberal arts are supposed to encourage critical thinking, how do the Humanities compare vs exact sciences/engineering in terms of critical thinking? - Do employers really value critical thinking, or does too much critical thinking inhibit your career prospects in an organisation?

This is the test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiate_Learning_Assessment

There are a lot of studies about what is critical thinking, how to test and teach it: eg. http://windsor.scholarsportal.info/ojs/leddy/index.php/infor...

Here's a PDF about the CLA itself: https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUSE/SEAL/Reports_Papers/highe...

> liberal arts ...

Yes, good insight, it'd be good to have access to the data.

> employers

I think there are very different types of employers. Some need broad rationalist critical thinkers, some need focused specialized experts, and so on.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#144

Post by VLM » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:06 PM UTC

closure wrote: post #6

jseliger wrote: post #2

I've taught college. This study is wildly unsurprising. I've written about this in various places (e.g. https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... ), but most colleges have evolved majors and paths that are designed to move students through the system, collect their tuition money, and graduate them. In re-reading the previous sentence, I think I sound opposed to this. I am a little bit, maybe, bu…

Totally agree. It took me until several years out of school to realize that learning to think should have been a primary focus of university. 25 years on I am realizing that although it got me work and very decent pay I probably would have been much better off if the entire focus of university had been: 1. Learning how to think 2. Learning how to learn Really the focus of earlier schooling probably should have been:…

You can lead a horse to water but you can't ...

Maybe 20 years ago taking night classes, the little liberal arts school I was at required a strange CS class theoretically oriented toward turning us into Excel technical experts in a semester. The REAL purpose of the class was to teach us how to learn how to learn, and learn how to think, about being handed an inadequately documented large technical system, then be responsible for providing support for that system after a couple months, which given my workplace experience, is a ridiculously useful and financially rewarding skillset.

Of course some kids took it as drill-n-kill memorization exercise in how to set up Excel pivot tables. That didn't help much with the somewhat theoretical final exam.

I would imagine that class has been scrapped as a teaching tool; too realistic; kids need more valuable education in their limited time, memorizing google-able algorithms for interview questions would be much more financially rewarding at least in the short term.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#145

Post by pas » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:12 PM UTC

nether wrote: post #35

Well, I'm a product of this system, so I'm not sure what I'm missing out on.

Critical thinking is basically a built-in bullshit detector. And if you use it on yourself it helps you to come up with good explanations [models] for things in the world, hence it helps you understand the world.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#146

Post by cubano » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:19 PM UTC

Noseshine wrote: post #121

Animats wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paying for the party" is amusing. "Pledged: The Secret Life of Sororities" covers much the same material. The importance of drinking didn't happen by accident. The alcohol industry promoted it heavily.[1] Two out of five students in the colleges studied are now binge drinkers. I got critical thinking early because I was brought up by a lawyer. There were always briefs around the house, and I could read the briefs fo…

> Today I read The Washington Post and Fox News every day, to compare what they're saying. I (a German) do the exact same thing! I don't even find Fox News stories particularly egregious, it's more in what stories they choose, but it's not any worse than WP or German news, only different. The discussion forums are much harder to bear though, but there is at least one major German newspaper (FAZ) that has very normal…

Realclearpolitics does a good job of sourcing articles from each side next to each other.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#147

Post by raleighm » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:36 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #94

raleighm wrote: post #89

Many comments here are about the value of higher ed generally and are fascinating to read, but I'm interested in critical reasoning particularly, and this study doesn't surprise me. (1) Critical reasoning is rarely taught directly, especially to students who don't major in or take a philosophy course. (2) Even when critical reasoning is taught directly, it's poorly taught. Compare an introductory text on critical rea…

I agree with 1-3, but about 4 - I think that's mostly a stereotype about STEM, not the real thing. First, most STEM education doesn't feature that much of formal logic, if any at all. Secondly, actual experience in STEM is probably the best way to internalize that reality is fuzzy and messy (and a good education will teach you that math has tools for handling exactly that, known as probability theory).

I actually agree with both points. I wasn't clear but I was referring to experiential learning, not the explicit curriculum. I agree about actual experience - nothing could replace it but I do think there are things that could accelerate the learning process.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#148

Post by pmarreck » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:37 PM UTC

See: the last election cycle

Also: As someone who does have critical-thinking skills (perhaps taught by my Cornell Psych major), it's extremely disheartening to see bad thinking pretty much everywhere

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#149

Post by pmarreck » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:38 PM UTC

thebspatrol wrote: post #46

Animats wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paying for the party" is amusing. "Pledged: The Secret Life of Sororities" covers much the same material. The importance of drinking didn't happen by accident. The alcohol industry promoted it heavily.[1] Two out of five students in the colleges studied are now binge drinkers. I got critical thinking early because I was brought up by a lawyer. There were always briefs around the house, and I could read the briefs fo…

I'd actually be really interested in knowing what percentage of people read opposing rhetoric. I easily spend far more time listening to and reading right-leaning rhetoric, despite being left leaning. I already know "my side". Why would I want to live in an echo chamber?

agree 100%. How do you know you're really right unless you read opposing viewpoints?

I've noticed that there's a herd mentality going on as well... People would rather "belong" than "be right", as it were

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#150

Post by thearn4 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 12:42 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #2

I've taught college. This study is wildly unsurprising. I've written about this in various places (e.g. https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... ), but most colleges have evolved majors and paths that are designed to move students through the system, collect their tuition money, and graduate them. In re-reading the previous sentence, I think I sound opposed to this. I am a little bit, maybe, bu…

I teach college occasionally, and definitely agree. It is a conveyer belt from freshman to senior, and those students who have not thought beyond their coursework may be in for a rude surprise post-graduation.