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Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

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Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#131
Critical thinking is an important skill but I'd like to caution against this fixation on critical thinking thought in collage as some sort of beacon for society.

Critical thinking is something people develop over the years and it starts early IMO. It's not just a 4 year course. It's a whole approach to the world around you. There are many critical thinkers in my experience outside of collage. And I don't see it a problem as such.

Also it doesn't matter how good a critical thinker you are we all have blind spots and biases that makes it impossible to be critical thinkers in all contexts. Will need to look at the study to see how it's actually measuring the critical thinking skills.

Many of those who do learn critical thinking first when they get to college end up getting such a aha moment that they think critical thinking is the same as constructive thinking and should be applied to everything.

You often meet them in the big companies or management. Many of them like to play the devils advocate poking holes in everything around them but aren't able to come up with solutions themselves.

In my view critical thinking is best learned by reading philosophy and seeing how philosophers historically either improved or created new theories. Because here critical thinking and constructive thinking goes hand in hand. If you read the right progression of philosophers through time you end up understanding how they didn't just critique but put forward their theories which could then be critiqued.

In my view critical thinking without constructive thinking is as big a problem as no critical thinking.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#132

Critical thinking is an important skill but I'd like to caution against this fixation on critical thinking thought in collage as some sort of beacon for society. Critical thinking is something people develop over the years and it starts early IMO. It's not just a 4 year course. It's a whole approach to the world around you. There are many critical thinkers in my experience outside of collage. And I don't see it a pro…

Nietzsche somewhere wrote as much, that the value of a philosophical theory was not the theory itself, but its ability to be used as architecture for others to build the theories that come after it.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#133

Critical thinking is an important skill but I'd like to caution against this fixation on critical thinking thought in collage as some sort of beacon for society. Critical thinking is something people develop over the years and it starts early IMO. It's not just a 4 year course. It's a whole approach to the world around you. There are many critical thinkers in my experience outside of collage. And I don't see it a pro…

> In my view critical thinking without constructive thinking is as big a problem as no critical thinking.

I disagree. I see critical thinking as a prerequisite for constructive thinking. Without the ability to identify problems, you can't offer solutions.

I and many fellow students in grad school went through exactly this evolution. First, you are taught to be critical and skeptical of everything. But at some point, you realize you can't get anything done in your own research if you are constantly skeptical of everything, so you learn how to find "good enough" solutions to tough problems.

So WRT society, I think it could use a healthy dose of critical thinking, because it suffers from the same problem. People can't identify good arguments, so they don't know they even need better ones.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#134
post #20

If people had critical thinking skills they wouldn't be taking out outrageous loans to pay for often worthless degrees.

Good luck finding a job without a college degree.

This guy should not be down voted.

For better or worse, College is the new high-school.

Of course a degree in of itself won't get you far but it's an easy filter that many companies use to quickly weed out candidates.

There are also other opportunities inside college (internships, friends, learning difficult concepts) that you realistically aren't going to find outside.

The value of a College degree depend heavily on how the individual leverages it but it's an important thing to have. Without what are you left with?

Retail/Sales, Warehouse work, Construction, Odd-jobs, Uber

That's the reality.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#135

Link to get past paywall: https://twitter.com/jposhaughnessy/status/871799072956534784

Thanks to AMP (pretty much the only good thing about it!) this works:

    curl -s https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/exclusive-test-data-many-colleges-fail-to-improve-critical-thinking-skills-1496686662 | sed -n '/./{//,//p;}' > wsj.html; open wsj.html

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#136

It took me a long time to really develop critical thinking skills. I'm still behind where I think I want to be. One thing I've noticed is spending more time on the right sites, like HN, has helped tremendously. Even if they aren't perfect. Another thing that has really helped is spending more time with critical thinking friends. So what really makes the top colleges so great. Is it really just the professors and curr…

I'm curious about what you've done to "develop critical thinking skills". I learned that kind of thing really young and I've always enjoyed puzzles and thinking, so it's not something I've had to work on.

And when I've seen others have problems with it, I've never seen them improve. I've watched them learn facts and processes, but never seen them actually learn how to think about new things that weren't given to them in a book or tutorial.

So... What's worked for you?

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could always work for me. I tell applicants to leave off their education credentials and to show me their previous work history and projects. Hired a dropout who ended up producing sports science research that probably could have netted him a Ph.D. We're out there hiring.

> Hired a dropout who ended up producing sports science research that probably could have netted him a Ph.D. Is there any way he could turn that into actual Ph.D.? I ask out of curiosity, because many people do things in their professional lives that are equivalent of achievements in academic work, and I wonder if there's a way to turn former into the latter.

You can buy degrees that turn "work experience" into credits, but nobody respects them, so it's not really worthwhile unless you really just want some letters after your name.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#138
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRAC = Issue, Rule, Application, Conclusion (I had to look it up) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRAC now I wish I'd gone to law school!

That sort of thing can just as well make you wish you'd gone to real estate school. "A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action. Attention -- do I have your attention? Interest -- are you interested? I know you are because it's fuck or walk. You close or you hit the bricks! Decision -- have you made your decision for Christ?!! And action."

Thank You for the condescension! :-P

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#139

Many comments here are about the value of higher ed generally and are fascinating to read, but I'm interested in critical reasoning particularly, and this study doesn't surprise me. (1) Critical reasoning is rarely taught directly, especially to students who don't major in or take a philosophy course. (2) Even when critical reasoning is taught directly, it's poorly taught. Compare an introductory text on critical rea…

I think your point (4) has substantial problems. I mean, as other commenters have already noted, hardly anyone in STEM studies formal logic. But OK. Let's suppose you mean "informal formal logic" -- not actual formal logic, but that sort of essential sense of how predicate logic works, that it becomes a backbone of much of your thinking. Math teaches that, as do subjects which are essentially math; but does the rest…

Thank you very much - and to 'foldr and 'TeMPOraL as well. Yes, I was referring to the logic/reasoning education/experience that one tends to gain in "STEM" - as an example of study outside of the humanities, which I had mentioned in point 3. Not direct/explicit study.

>Your point (4) appears to implicitly making the claim that learning formal logic (or rather, "informal formal logic") doesn't help much with informal logic.

No. My point is that formal logic isn't sufficient, not that it isn't valuable or necessary. It is indeed very valuable and necessary.

>Doing any sort of serious math, you will learn how an argument really works, how to take it apart.

Your "really" there is presuming the thing in dispute, which is what is a "real" or paradigm case of argument/logic. Is it artificial formal language/symbols, or how people actually talk? In the vast majority of circumstances in which we are called upon to reason, the materials we must work with are natural language arguments. At the very least, study in informal logic is useful for understanding what's different about natural language argument; what can go wrong when converting it into formal expression; etc. As you noted, a good mathematician makes even natural language arguments precise "when possible". That requires knowing when is it "possible"; what can and can't be expressed in formal terms; whether some concepts (like democracy, art, etc.) are essentially contestable, which I presume presents difficulties for formalized expression; when is inconsistent nomenclature worth stopping and resetting over; how does one do interpretation; what can go wrong with interpretation; etc. And here's an important one: When are we better off without precision? (For example, would we be better off as a society if the meaning of "cruel and unusual punishment" could be expressed w/ mathematical precision? Some norms are valuable because they facilitate debate rather than settle debate.) If a good mathematician has a sense for all of these things, that sense is no doubt strongly aided by foundation in formal logic. It would also be aided in different ways by foundation in informal logic, but my sense is informal logic is relatively neglected.

Re: Many Colleges Fail to Improve Critical-Thinking Skills

#140

Many comments here are about the value of higher ed generally and are fascinating to read, but I'm interested in critical reasoning particularly, and this study doesn't surprise me. (1) Critical reasoning is rarely taught directly, especially to students who don't major in or take a philosophy course. (2) Even when critical reasoning is taught directly, it's poorly taught. Compare an introductory text on critical rea…

Can you recommend a text on critical reasoning? It's something I often feel I'm quite bad at.

These are good:

The Art of Reasoning: An Introduction to Logic and Critical Thinking (Fourth Edition) 4th Edition

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Reasoning-Introduction-Critical-T...

Reflections on Reasoning 1st Edition

https://www.amazon.com/Reflections-Reasoning-Raymond-S-Nicke...

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