Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#201

Post by vinceguidry » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #198

vinceguidry wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about government contractors? They're funded by the government. Your way of thinking about it taints every dollar that passes through government, forcing everything that deals with the government to be treated as part of the government.

Government contractors are already quite regulated as a result of their status. For example: http://www.bairdholm.com/publications-feed/entry/president-o...

Well sure, but that doesn't make them less private. Plenty of private entities are subject to regulation.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#202

Post by thaumasiotes » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

kodt wrote: post #105

std_throwaway wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not yet. The data is there to link it to you.

And by what legal means would a private university access that data to connect it?

Reading a document dump from somewhere. Same way people accessed the Ashley Madison subscriber data.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#203

Post by nxrabl » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

ziggysak wrote: post #79

I think an article such as this one is a clear example of the generational differences between older and younger people. I'm fairly close to these kids' age and I've browsed memes from /r/dankmemes and enjoyed them. The thing is, is that these memes are supposed to be self-aware of how offensive they are. That's the joke. They're meant to be so offensive and ridiculous that reactions can be drawn from outside spectat…

I'm probably around the same age you are, and I have to disagree with you that these kinds of jokes are harmless.

For one thing, cultures like this do provide safe havens to people who actually hold bigoted views 'sincerely'. I've been in IRL conversations that ran along these norms, and it was a really uncomfortable experience, especially as a member of a favorite 4Chan target group. It became fairly obvious over the course of the evening that one of the guys there really had drunk a fair bit of the 4Chan kool-aid, but how can you call him out when everyone is cracking the same jokes? Few things shut down open exchange of ideas faster than than the thought that the person you're talking to fundamentally doesn't respect you, because of who you are.

But that's not even the real problem I have with this kind of in-group offense culture - the real problem is that no one is ever as self-aware as they think they are. What you say shapes how you think, and then how you act, in ways we may never be consciously aware of. The students Harvard produces are going to end up in board rooms, courtrooms, and halls of power of all kinds all over the country; I expect them to be disciplined thinkers both academically and socially, who take these kinds of issues with the seriousness they deserve, not trollface memesters hiding their intellectual laziness behind image macros.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#204

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

std_throwaway wrote: post #97

eropple wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were allowed to speak. They did speak. "Freedom of speech" applies only and strictly to governments, not to a private institution. And that's because the only way "freedom of speech" matters is if others are free to react to you as they please; Harvard might not like you and might tell you to get the hell out of their (and my, as it happens) neighborhood. If you don't like that, then you have options. One, don't…

Cutting down to the point. * What these students did or didn't do does not matter in this case. * Harvard can withdraw the acceptance for anyone at any time for any reason. We don't need to argue about privacy or free speech here. All we can argue about as a first point is if Harvard should have the ability to withdraw their acceptance or not.

[deleted]

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#205

Post by ziggysak » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #195

Houshalter wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a new thing. Dead baby jokes have been around forever, and popular comedians often use similar black humor. The article mentions the card game cards against humanity. Which is pretty popular and based on the same premise. I used to really like black humor. I frequently told dead baby jokes and similar stuff. Thank god that wasn't recorded. I'm alarmed to see many of the comments here outraged over the stuff…

> The article mentions the card game cards against humanity. Which is pretty popular and based on the same premise. Except that the premise of Cards Against Humanity is that you are all opting in to the situation where you expect that, and usually an a somewhat private setting. The equivalent to the CAH suggestion would be where some private group of people indicated that to become members, you had to go to a public…

I wouldn't consider that equivalent at all. This was an invite-only private chat between students. So in other words, it would be like they were playing CAH in a dorm room and somebody in the group decided to tell on them to administration.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#206

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #122

std_throwaway wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they can keep out everyone they don't really like by an arbitrary set of rules? Maybe you spit out chewing gum somewhere one night and violated the rule of not spitting for one example. I'm not saying that these students are good people or that I endorse anything they said. I'm defending the right of privacy and free speech for anyone at any time.

You are defending the "right of privacy and free speech" by shitting on other people's right to freely associate with the people they choose to. Almost like it isn't about "free speech" at all.

Your comments offends me. How would you like it if I then contacted your workplace and got you fired, or expelled from school.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#207

Post by ajross » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

schwap wrote: post #160

ajross wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> creeping surveillance society This was a university-moderated and maintained facebook group. There was absolutely no expectation on the part of the posters that Harvard could not read their words. You can get expelled for public speech on campus too.

They met through the university's group, but they created their own chat.

That doesn't fly either. If you're a college student and decide to make a "private" White Power Resistance Cell with your friends and then advertise for it on campus using university-provided messaging, you still get expelled.

Again, Harvard did no "surveillance" here. They found these kids because they were posting garbage on Harvard's own forum.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#208

Post by ziggysak » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 5:01 PM UTC

Trill-I-Am wrote: post #200

ziggysak wrote: post #79

I think an article such as this one is a clear example of the generational differences between older and younger people. I'm fairly close to these kids' age and I've browsed memes from /r/dankmemes and enjoyed them. The thing is, is that these memes are supposed to be self-aware of how offensive they are. That's the joke. They're meant to be so offensive and ridiculous that reactions can be drawn from outside spectat…

How does that dynamic work in this situation in which there was not intended to be an outside audience?

That's a very fair point. I've made plenty of these jokes before to my friends and sent memes that are blatantly offensive because of the taboo factor. It's black comedy. Similarly to how Aristophanes made fun of Socrates and basically created the genre of dark humor.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#209

Post by nxsynonym » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #180

nxsynonym wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in another comment - I don't disagree with Harvard's decision, or any decision made by a private institution or person. I disagree with the notion that certain types of speech or thought are universally wrong. Personally - I believe racism is wrong - but I disagree with the notion that it's "wrong think". It's simply a different world view. To re-iterate: I don't agree with what the students said or did. I…

> It's simply a different world view. One that states that people with more melatonin are fundamentally inferior and should be subservient to people with less melatonin. It is a point of view that is objectively and morally wrong. I wonder whether you would support the right of people to state that PoC should be sterilized, or the rights of people to call people to attack PoCs. Because that is what more and more peop…

There is no such thing as an objectively correct or incorrect world-view. It's an opinion and is shaped by culture, circumstance, and upbringing.

To answer you question - Yes, I would support the rights of people to state whatever they wish. I also support the rights of individuals such as you or myself to call those people morons, and to not associate with them.

Suppressing speech, and demonizing people for their views (no matter how "objectively wrong") does not solve any problem. It only breeds hate and contempt and radicalizes people more.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#210

Post by chickenfries » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

misterbowfinger wrote: post #63

metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

> Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say.

> Comparing this to fascism is a little heavy, but not out of line.

Are these students already not submitting themselves to be judged by Harvard's exceptionally high standards? This isn't some good state school and these aren't students who have earned their place by paying taxes and getting good grades. If Harvard sees this kind of behavior, decides that they made a mistake when choosing these students (they want students who will represent them well for the rest of their life, and character is very much in play during college admissions)... I think it's more than fair to say that these students should lose their place to someone who hasn't so easily proven themselves as a risk to Harvard's brand.