Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#121

Post by captainmuon » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #75

metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance. There are some ignorant thoughts that have almost entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). (As a random example, there…

> There are some ignorant thoughts that have entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). There are many more that need to.

After decades of denazification and tabooisation of national socialism and anything related, we still have a shocking proportion of Nazis in Germany. Openly self-identified Nazis, only a fraction of a percent, but people who agree with statements like "A strong leader (Führer) would be better than democracy" or "Jews are foreign bodies in the German people" - 15-20% according to some studies. And it's not talked about much, but in my opinion we have a bigger problem with right wing terrorism than with islamic terrorism here.

In the US, it is similar. Decades after the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King, rampant racism again, people flying the confederate flag, white people killing black people.

What do I want to say with that? People often wish back the past few decades, before social media, which seemed more "civilized". I honestly think now, no, people were not more civilized, we just kept a tighter lid on what people thought.

I don't want to hear the racists, bigots, sexists either... but just silencing them does not seem to actually change peoples minds.

And also (I say this as a left-wing/liberal), I myself want to have a space where I can just say what the fuck I want, without consequences. "It is not my revolution" if I can't say idiotic things in private.

(Edit: And of course, you are right, and I agree with your comment. Please don't view this as a refutation, but as a second-order correction :-))

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#122

Post by eropple » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

std_throwaway wrote: post #82

bryondowd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is stopping them from speaking. Doesn't mean everyone else isn't free to choose not to associate with them. That includes organizations.

So they can keep out everyone they don't really like by an arbitrary set of rules? Maybe you spit out chewing gum somewhere one night and violated the rule of not spitting for one example. I'm not saying that these students are good people or that I endorse anything they said. I'm defending the right of privacy and free speech for anyone at any time.

You are defending the "right of privacy and free speech" by shitting on other people's right to freely associate with the people they choose to.

Almost like it isn't about "free speech" at all.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#123

Post by wvenable » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

pyroinferno wrote: post #14

akhilcacharya wrote: post #11

Someone at a state school would have the same thing happen to them if they pulled stuff like this. No reason why they should be treated with kid gloves because they got into Harvard.

I think the concern here is that it was private.

If it was really private, the school wouldn't have heard about it and this would never have happened. If I call you names in private, and someone tells you, you'd be well within your right to be upset about it.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#124

Post by ajross » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

> creeping surveillance society

This was a university-moderated and maintained facebook group. There was absolutely no expectation on the part of the posters that Harvard could not read their words. You can get expelled for public speech on campus too.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#125

Post by kbenson » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #99

bradleyjg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard could admit only valedictorians. It could admit only those with perfect scores on the SAT. It doesn't do either of those things. Rather it spends a lot of time and energy putting together a class that it thinks will be greater than the sum of its parts. As a private organization it is perfectly entitled to pick and choose what matters to it. In that light, why not consider the character of the people it decid…

No, but on the other hand, membership in the priesthood implies a direct responsibility for the wellbeing of those in your pastoral care, and a degree of authority, derived from one's position, which can be abused to do great harm. I'm not really sure what there is about being a freshman at Harvard that merits the same extent of scrutiny.

Every Harvard student has a shared responsibility with every other student for the quality and tone of the community as a whole. Harvard cultivates a very specific type of community. These candidates signaled to Harvard through their actions that they are not conducive to the community Harvard is trying to cultivate (whether true or not).

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#126

Post by misingnoglic » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

misterbowfinger wrote: post #63

metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

I agree that what they posted was offensive. But we can't start holding graduating high school students to the same standards we hold world and business leaders. Ironically, we didn't for Trump, but that's certainly the idea. Revoking one's admission to Harvard is a really rough way to teach the lesson of what you're supposed to and not supposed to say. College is the time to not only learn new ideas, but also to un-…

I don't think that standards should be lowered for high school seniors. These are people who are legally allowed to vote, join the army, buy guns, etc.., and for these people it's go to Harvard. They should know that it's unacceptable to share memes about sexual violence, racism, and whatnot, especially on Facebook. When I was in 6th grade (I'm 21 now), my school gave us the talk about the internet, saying that whatever you post on the internet is forever. This might have been exaggerated, but definitely not for a Facebook account that had your name attached to it, and a group chat that's directly splintered from your incoming Harvard class group page.

At the same time, I have a bit of a personal story. When I was in 8th grade, I made a Facebook account, and uploaded a random picture with a random caption involving rape - at the time my friends and I used the word like when you beat someone at a video game... Yeah it was pretty bad. My mom found the picture and responded by screaming at me and basically taking my computer away for a while, and my Facebook deactivated for much longer. I didn't understand at the time why it was such a big deal (maybe more explaining could have happened) but that interaction both makes me cringe every time I think about it and might have been the best thing to happen to me. Maybe getting the acceptences revoked is just the kick in the ass that they need.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#127

Post by ziggysak » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

bjl wrote: post #109

ziggysak wrote: post #79

I think an article such as this one is a clear example of the generational differences between older and younger people. I'm fairly close to these kids' age and I've browsed memes from /r/dankmemes and enjoyed them. The thing is, is that these memes are supposed to be self-aware of how offensive they are. That's the joke. They're meant to be so offensive and ridiculous that reactions can be drawn from outside spectat…

'Ironic' racism is still racism.

Actually, it isn't. Racism is based in the belief that one group is superior to the other. If one is making an ironic joke, it does not imply any intent of racism on their part.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#128

Post by geebee » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #81

metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

Harvard could admit only valedictorians. It could admit only those with perfect scores on the SAT. It doesn't do either of those things. Rather it spends a lot of time and energy putting together a class that it thinks will be greater than the sum of its parts. As a private organization it is perfectly entitled to pick and choose what matters to it. In that light, why not consider the character of the people it decid…

This is an aside, but I don't entirely agree. The tax exemption Harvard receives on its massive endowment is, per undergraduate, worth much more than the direct government subsidy public universities receive per student. UC Berkeley alone enrolls more low income students than the entire Ivy League combined (this is true of several UCs). Harvard also gets a monumental amount of funding directly from the federal government, and while much of this is in the form of research grants, it is allowed to redirect a substantial portion of this to operating costs.

Harvard gets this government favored status (in many ways, far more favored by the government than a "public" university, which has many more obligations) precisely because it is ostensibly acting in the public interest.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#129

Post by noer » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

alunchbox wrote: post #78

g051051 wrote: post #41

Considering how competitive the acceptance criteria are for Harvard (2,056 out of 39,506 applications), this is just another decision point. Now 10 other people are able to get in, and the entire body of current and prospective students have learned a valuable lesson about privacy and free speech.

unfortunately for these 10 ex-applicants of Harvard they might not get into any University period for 2017/2018... This isn't a small implication to them for stupid posts online. I'm not 100% sure if I feel that's fair. them not getting into Harvard is one thing but losing education at this point in time is even worse.

You can get fired from a job at private company for posting racist material on the internet. I'm not sure how acceptance to a private college is any different. It's better that they learn this lesson now, rather than when a salary depends on it. They're smart/accomplished enough to get into Harvard and they'll all likely rebound from this.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#130

Post by Frondo » Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #104

fao_ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People protecting the right of racists to spread racism, support racism. It cannot be any other way. You cannot claim that you dislike racism, and and also want to preserve it. Also, "Free speech" refers to the fact that the government cannot bust in to your house with a SWAT team and arrest you for speaking something that they don't like. Private companies can enforce whatever speech rules they like, and that doesn'…

There is lots of speech I dislike and don't support, but I don't oppress speakers or advocate for their oppression because I don't want people oppressing me when the tide turns. Supporting free speech is not the same as supporting the content of the speech. Also worth pointing out that Harvard receives a lot of public dollars, so it's not the canonical private institution. Remember when everyone freaked out that the…

I'm not out passing any laws banning racist shit, but it sounds like you're saying I can't even get it out of my life if I want to. Again, how did we get here??