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ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

electronconf.com

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#261

Post by thescribe »

Melchizedek wrote: post #142
namaemuta wrote: post #20

> ElectronConf is a brand new conference completely dedicated to Electron If you were completely dedicated to Electron you wouldn't postpone it, since what matters is the content, not who tells it.

Once social justice warriors converge an organization, the organization is doomed, because their goal of perverted "justice" is much more important to them than the goals of the organization itself, and they are perfectly willing to sacrifice the latter.

This is like the memetic version of a virus. It exists only to subvert the host into spreading itself.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#262

Post by concede_pluto »

zzalpha wrote: post #208
PrimHelios wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're pushing to have unqualified people on your board simply because they're women, your company will die. Aside from that, why strive if I know I have a good chance of getting a position even without any kind of merit? Fucking hell, I want to be seen as more than just a disabled trans woman, I want people to look at the shit I've done and say "Wow, she's really awesome, let's hire her/accept her into our colleg…

Oh come on. Anyone seriously espousing the idealism of pure "meritocracy" needs to put aside their gradeschool naivete. Next you'll start quoting Anne Rand back to us. It's one of those ideas that sure sounds good... I mean, who can possibly argue with the idea that they should pick the best speakers with the best content? Until you actually think about it. What you fail to recognize is that, unless you can find me q…

Nobody cares about diversity in accounting. There are no role models. It's just a bunch of nerds trying to score 100% on the big test because nobody else is obsessed enough to be any good at it.

That's what programming was like before these people chasing big paychecks invaded.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#263

Post by zyx321 »

macspoofing wrote: post #36
tjpnz wrote: post #18

This may be an unpopular opinion but I still don't understand why diversity even matters here - shouldn't it be the merit of the ideas and the presentation skills of the speakers?

I don't actually know anyone who concerns themselves with identity politics to the extent they would mothball their tech conference. Who are these people who make these kinds of decisions?

The same kind of people who banished the word "meritocracy" from the posters in their office because it might be offensive towards diversity hires who couldn't compete on merit.

GitHub, that's who.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#264

Post by macspoofing »

nojvek wrote: post #235
TeMPOraL wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. Were I accepted and later dumped like this, I'd feel I was subject to actual gender/race discrimination. The whole thing is ridiculous. To fight perceived discrimination, those people are doing even more direct and overt discrimination.

I see this from another point of view. Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story. She feels there's no way she'll be able to break ground and be recognized as successful. She slowly drops out and leaves the industry and goes somewhere where she can make friends like her. Now suppose she sees plenty of female speakers and sh…

>Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story.

>

>She feels there's no way she'll be able to break ground and be recognized as successful.

Does a person like that actually exist? Have you ever met a person that was so discouraged and distraught by the fact that many tech conferences have more white male speakers that she decided to leave the industry?!

Or are we just spinning a hypothetical person that does not actually exist?

>Once the cycle of people being motivated and seeing others like you starts, you see a diverse set of candidates joining the industry.

Again, is that actually based on reality??

This is line argument is so frustrating. I strongly suspect you're just making things up. You have a particular belief and you used a totally made-up scenario as validation for your belief.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#265

Post by rayiner »

macspoofing wrote: post #248
selllikesybok wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is equality of outcome terrible, per se?

Because it is ambiguous goal which under any reasonable interpretation has massive consequences and major unintended side-effects. My favorite sport is basketball. What is the 'equality of outcome' in the context of the NBA? Is it that players are evenly distributed across gender lines? Across economic lines? Across national lines? Across racial or ethnic or religious lines? In our society, it would probably be under…

> So you should see 70% white players, 15% hispanic players, 12% black players, 5% asian players. Is that the right solution? But is the fact that black Americans dominate the league actually a problem? And what the heck are you supposed to do to fix it?

Arguably yes. The NBA itself is an irrelevantly tiny portion of the economy. But it creates a huge pressure on African American kids to focus on being successful through sports instead of academic pursuits.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#266

Post by [deleted] »

macspoofing wrote: post #248
selllikesybok wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is equality of outcome terrible, per se?

Because it is ambiguous goal which under any reasonable interpretation has massive consequences and major unintended side-effects. My favorite sport is basketball. What is the 'equality of outcome' in the context of the NBA? Is it that players are evenly distributed across gender lines? Across economic lines? Across national lines? Across racial or ethnic or religious lines? In our society, it would probably be under…

[deleted]

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#267

Post by rayiner »

leereeves wrote: post #242
selllikesybok wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turtles, all the way down. ---- Or to be less glib, that's a great question, and like many, not simple to answer well. Mostly, it seems like a lack of positive reinforcement and role models (leading to self selection out at early ages), mixed with sexism in a a variety of forms (leading to lack of opportunities, or hostile environment and self selection out at later ages). But that's an oversimplification.

If women don't choose to go into tech, that's their own choice. It's not as if men went into tech because of positive social reinforcement for being a nerd. There's still a social stigma attached to it, which I'd love to see change, but it affects both men and women.

It's a choice, but it's not the same choice. When a woman signs up to be an engineer, she's signing up for long hours debugging segfaults, just like a man. But unlike a man, she's signing up to spend four years in school being one of the handful of women in her class, then entering a workforce with the likes of Uber, etc. There signing up for a life of awkward encounters with coworkers, supervisors who try to date female employees, limited support networks, etc.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#268

Post by rayiner »

macspoofing wrote: post #249
selllikesybok wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turtles, all the way down. ---- Or to be less glib, that's a great question, and like many, not simple to answer well. Mostly, it seems like a lack of positive reinforcement and role models (leading to self selection out at early ages), mixed with sexism in a a variety of forms (leading to lack of opportunities, or hostile environment and self selection out at later ages). But that's an oversimplification.

Really what I'm getting at, there is no 'structural racism' in this case. You cannot point at a law, or mandate, or policy that actively discriminates against an ethnicity, race, or gender. The best you can do is give some hand-wavy argument that 'unconscious biases' are driving racist actions without knowledge of the person - but what is a person supposed to do with that? They are racist in such a secret way that ev…

What is your explanation for the underrepresentation of black people and women in engineering besides structural racism and sexism? If the answer is "self selection," explain to me what could possibly cause women and black people to self-select out of high paying interesting jobs?

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#269

Post by macspoofing »

rayiner wrote: post #265
macspoofing wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is ambiguous goal which under any reasonable interpretation has massive consequences and major unintended side-effects. My favorite sport is basketball. What is the 'equality of outcome' in the context of the NBA? Is it that players are evenly distributed across gender lines? Across economic lines? Across national lines? Across racial or ethnic or religious lines? In our society, it would probably be under…

> So you should see 70% white players, 15% hispanic players, 12% black players, 5% asian players. Is that the right solution? But is the fact that black Americans dominate the league actually a problem? And what the heck are you supposed to do to fix it? Arguably yes. The NBA itself is an irrelevantly tiny portion of the economy. But it creates a huge pressure on African American kids to focus on being successful thr…

>Arguably yes.

What do you mean "arguably yes"? What are we losing by having blacks be over-represented in the NBA?

>But there is a huge pressure on African American kids to focus on being successful through sports instead of academic pursuits.

BY WHO??! Who are these individuals who are pressuring black kids to focus on sports instead of academics?!? I have never met such a person.

Professional Hockey is dominated by White Canadians and Russians. Baseball is over-represented by Latino/Hispanic players. Asians, who are 5% of the US population, account for almost 25% of all Physicians. Which industry has this perfect ratio of races that should serve as a model for us all. And you conveniently side-stepped the issue of 1) why it is race/ethnicity where proportionality should be prioritized over (for example) religion, and 2) is it even reasonable to expect that such a ratio to be achievable in a society where people are free to choose and 3) what the heck is the actual gain to society if it is versus the cost of brainwashing people to want things they don't actually want.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#270

Post by dragonwriter »

macspoofing wrote: post #248
selllikesybok wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is equality of outcome terrible, per se?

Because it is ambiguous goal which under any reasonable interpretation has massive consequences and major unintended side-effects. My favorite sport is basketball. What is the 'equality of outcome' in the context of the NBA? Is it that players are evenly distributed across gender lines? Across economic lines? Across national lines? Across racial or ethnic or religious lines? In our society, it would probably be under…

> But is the fact that black Americans dominate the league actually a problem?

It's a symptom of one.

> And what the heck are you supposed to do to fix it?

Deal with the problems that deny so many black youth any better opportunities than the lottery-ticket of aiming for success in sports.

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