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Facebook is an attack on the open web

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Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#321

Post by FridgeSeal »

throwaway-1209 wrote: post #143
nnfy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with an idle Facebook account is at least twofold: my activity is still being tracked against my will, and out of principle I refuse to support an organization which so blatantly disregards personal space.

Your activity is being tracked irrespective of whether or not you have a Facebook account. Google and Facebook will track you anyway and then correlate your browsing patterns with those of other people (about whom they know more) and infer everything there is to know about you.

That doesn't mean we should just roll over and give it all to them.

You're not obliged to hand this data over when you don't use their services, and ideally, they wouldn't track you if you didn't want to be tracked, but facebook is pretty close to being ethically void, so they'll do whatever scummy thing they want, so you should by all means make it as difficult as possible for them to get data on you.

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#322

Post by throwaway-1209 »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #321
throwaway-1209 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your activity is being tracked irrespective of whether or not you have a Facebook account. Google and Facebook will track you anyway and then correlate your browsing patterns with those of other people (about whom they know more) and infer everything there is to know about you.

That doesn't mean we should just roll over and give it all to them. You're not obliged to hand this data over when you don't use their services, and ideally, they wouldn't track you if you didn't want to be tracked, but facebook is pretty close to being ethically void, so they'll do whatever scummy thing they want, so you should by all means make it as difficult as possible for them to get data on you.

>> That doesn't mean we should just roll over and give it all to them.

Unless you run an ad blocker and/or EFF Privacy Badger, that's exactly what you're doing. Your consent is not required. There are literally _dozens_ of companies that do this, Facebook and Google are just two of them. There were some initiatives in some states to apply a stiff tax to companies that trade in user data, but I don't know if they went anywhere. That's one tax I'd be in favor of, even though I'm not in favor of more taxes in general.

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#323

Post by FridgeSeal »

thinkling wrote: post #288
criddell wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I should have clarified that deleting the cookie and staying signed out is about the same as not having a Facebook account. Even if you block them 100% online, as soon as you use a credit card or loyalty card, you are letting them track you again.

Deleting cookies isn't enough anymore to prevent tracking. Facebook knows your home IP address, your browser user-agent, and likely your browser finger print. Should they care to, they don't need a cookie to connect you with data they already have about you.

I wonder if there's a good way to get around some of these problems.

In my country, and with my ISP we have dynamic IP's, so I don't have a 'home IP' as such. Browser user agent's are pretty easy to spoof/mock/etc. Browser fingerprinting is super hard to work around though - especially stuff like the canvas fingerprinting, because blocking it outright can also be used as a unique identifier when combined with other data.

Would it be possible to build some kind of public repository of canvas fingerprints, then whenever a site tries to build one, rather than outright blocking it, you return one of the public fingerprints from the repository. Get the repo big enough and used by enough people (especially if you could extend it out to other identifiers like fonts) and I imagine you would have a good chance of driving down one's uniqueness in a privacy conscious manner.

I'm not familiar with JS or the mechanics of how these fingerprints are generated, so I don't know if this is possible, but I imagine that if you can block them (Firefox 'Canvas Blocker' extension, you could intercept them?

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#324

Post by cgb223 »

> It is not accessible to search engines

The thought of potential employers searching though Facebook posts I made when I was a teenager terrifies me.

If they ever made this possible I'd stop using their service immediately

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#326

Post by mythrwy »

dsacco wrote: post #279
joshbaptiste wrote: post #30

ah a "Why FB is evil" article, here come the slew of HN'ers to proclaim their deletion of FB years ago. I myself have no issues with the social network, I keep up with friends, family and it isn't a time suck for me anymore than HN.

Pretty soon we're going to need an "Anti-Facebook Evangelism Strike Force" or an "Open Web Evangelism Strike Force." Judging by the way people throw the word "evil" around here, you'd think Facebook was murdering kittens and using human batteries to power Free Basics, as Zuckerberg sat on a throne of acquired-company logos laughing to himself. How dare Facebook provide limited internet to the developing world instead…

"How dare Facebook provide limited internet to the developing world instead of nothing at all..."

Agreed. The intent and likely outcome of that was pretty evil.

You may be fine with Facebook controlling the flow of information. I'm not. I don't live in the developing world but am delighted to see efforts to that end stifled (where it has happened).

Other than that, as a social network, I don't have a hard issue with Facebook. I'm sure it's fine for lots of people. Friends and family use it and seem to get something out of it. It's not my type of thing so never had an account but I don't perceive it as evil.

I guess I perceive Facebook something like a used car salesman or owner of a dive bar in a bad neighborhood or a porn aggregator. A little shady, probably not to be intrinsically trusted and not the kind of thing I want to be around, but not necessarily evil.

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#327

Post by JBReefer »

xadhominemx wrote: post #264
mysterydip wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remove the like, and let the feed be the actual feed and not an algorithmically-filtered list, would be a great start IMHO.

Try switching your feed from "Top Stories" to "Most Recent"

That doesn't stick between sessions

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#329

Post by ricardobeat »

StavrosK wrote: post #286
abritinthebay wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's... it's not that Facebook itself is the issue. It's the resulting network effects and how you interact with people while still on it. For example: not being on Facebook means you actually have to keep in touch with people to know what they are doing . That sounds like a "duh" moment, but it's also key to how FB is replacing real social interaction with "social interaction". The knock on effects of this are deep,…

I get that it's the network effects, but I guess I don't understand how your relationships are structured. I have a core group of friends with whom I talk every day on IM or the phone or face to face, then a larger group with whom I talk a few times a week, and then the rest are acquaintances I talk to rarely. If anything happens in any of the first two groups, I hear about it because I'm directly invited. There aren…

Your core group of friends may use Messenger for IM and FB events for meeting up. You can still probably catch up but it will take a _lot_ more effort.

Re: Facebook is an attack on the open web

#330

Post by mythrwy »

dsacco wrote: post #268
jasonszhao wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook in fact is engaged in web breaking behavior. Look at what they recently tried to do with internet.org and Free Basics. Basically calling their walled garden the internet and giving it away for free to developing countries.

> Facebook is in fact involved in web breaking behavior. >...internet.org and Free Basics... Last week I met someone who spent the better part of two years in Mozambique and other parts of Africa for the Peace Corps. He spent most of his time in areas that had little to no internet access. He used Free Basics a lot while he was there and considered it integral to his work and sanity (in his words). Based on his exper…

You bring up a point where facebook net helped someone.

But the longer term risks of facebook net far outweigh the help for your friend in Africa.

I don't believe one company should have control over the internet. In fact, I really really don't believe this. Attempting to be the sole gatekeeper of information in the modern world is in my estimation something that should not be allowed. Anywhere. Ever. I guess I can't blame facebook for trying to do this. But I recoil in moral disgust at the implications.

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