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Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

nytimes.com

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Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#21

Post by marnett »

vtange wrote: post #10

There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest). For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Ma…

So the west is superior because their citizens, although having access to damning documents of the actions of their nation, both domestic and abroad, choose not to care?

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#23

Post by qwertyegg »

Glad to see many reasonable comments here.

I have a vague memory of CCTV(official media, not your backyard CCTV) footage that depicting students and other people as mobs and killing soliders and burning the dead soldiers body.

Over the years, I got more and more piece of information about what happened at the time. clearly Chinese government is still trying to cover up what they did, and many exiles is still making up fake stories.

Nowadays in China people don't really care that much as you thought they would. The general consensus is that they are willing to forget about what happened and move on since it's full of opportunities right now and most people are more focused on getting a better life.

Not saying Chinese government was right they knew what happened was shameful and still forbids open news covfefe or discussion about it. In a booming economy it's just hard to mass up enough momentum to really get into a discussion about what happens in 1989, people just don't care anymore.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#24

Post by gagege »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11
blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

And I'm going to point out that many poor and uneducated people throughout history have willingly given their lives so that future generations could have more freedom. The point is, it was their choice to put themselves in harm's way for their friends and families.

It's inhumane to continuously turn a blind eye to those who crush civil disobedience.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#25

Post by JabavuAdams »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #20
JabavuAdams wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

What you're saying is that it is better for people to live under authoritarian governments of dictatorships than die fighting for their freedom. It's not a despicable position but it's incredibly short-sighted.

There's always a cost-benefit. None of us are truly free from all obligations, not all of them strictly voluntary. Friends, family, community, the state. We're constantly trading-off freedom vs. responsibility.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#26

Post by schoen »

nickbauman wrote: post #16
racl101 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chalk it up to the Mandela Effect? Brace for this ... there .... was ... no tank man. Dun! dun! duunnnnnn!!!

What are you saying? I saw Tank Man live on TV as it was happening. If there really was no tank man, you have a lot of explaining to do.

The previous commenter was trying to make a joke about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Collective_false_...

(where lots of people seem to remember specific things, like Nelson Mandela dying decades ago, that didn't happen), but the joke might have fallen flat even if you got the reference.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#27

Post by Angostura »

marnett wrote: post #21
vtange wrote: post #10

There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest). For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Ma…

So the west is superior because their citizens, although having access to damning documents of the actions of their nation, both domestic and abroad, choose not to care?

Do they choose not to care?

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#28

Post by clamprecht »

vtange wrote: post #10

There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest). For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Ma…

We can read about Kent State shootings. But what can't we read about? What ugly stuff happened in the US that we don't talk about?

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#29

Post by ekianjo »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #18
ekianjo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tian an Men protests were peaceful and non-violent. Why do you need to suppress them using guns and tanks? That's the perfect opportunity to embrace progressive regime change/evolution instead of gunning people down.

So were the initial Syrian protests. The problem is, as a head of state, you're responsible for the whole populace. You don't know where it will end. It could literally end in the breakup and destruction of your country, never mind something as trivial as regime change. EDIT> Or are you saying that peaceful protest could be met with some perhaps token concessions. Then if the protesters get violent, the state is just…

We know using violence against population is useless if the people are determined to stand for what they believe in. That's the whole story of decolonization across the world. Guns just give you time, but sooner or later people rise again. Look at India. They were gunned down many times, but they did not give up, and ultimately made their voices heard.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#30

Post by burkaman »

marnett wrote: post #21
vtange wrote: post #10

There's inevitably going to be people trying to justify the tragedy here by suggesting America is no better, pointing to instances such as the Kent State Shootings (Vietnam War protest). For those people I'd like to point out that unlike China, America doesn't actively try to hide the negative sides of its history to the extent China does. I can read about the Kent State shootings all I want, along with the My Lai Ma…

So the west is superior because their citizens, although having access to damning documents of the actions of their nation, both domestic and abroad, choose not to care?

Yes, all other things being equal, open information is better than censorship. But you are obviously exaggerating, lots of people care.
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