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Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

nytimes.com

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Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#11

Post by JabavuAdams »

blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue.

China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989.

Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands?

If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at all.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#12

Post by nickbauman »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

Yet another example of "nothing matters like success." Since 1989, China has gone on to have great success - both economic and diplomatic, and is on the verge (if not already achieved) super-power status. Because of that success, there is not much anybody can do about human rights abuses, so most people don't pay much attention to it.

A variation of Churchill's "History is written by the victors."

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#13

Post by throw2016 »

Without wishing away the massacre or diminishing the kind of despotic environment that allows this to happen shouldn't the same kind of moral reprehension be expressed for the massive loss of life in the middle east from Libya, Iraq to Syria?

Yet we rarely see this in the same context as these actions continue to be pursued aggressively with little resistance from citizens in the west.

This seems to a very selective form of morality in practice more at ease judging others than examining our own actions.

Tiananmen is past and beyond but the loss of life and destruction of entire countries that puts millions of lives in disarray in the middle east is here and now and continues unabated yet there is little pressure on our leaders to cease these actions from citizens. No western leader is tainted with the kind of moral reprehension directed at the Chinese inspite of far more serious crimes against humanity. There is a definite dissonance here.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#14

Post by ekianjo »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11
blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

Tian an Men protests were peaceful and non-violent. Why do you need to suppress them using guns and tanks? That's the perfect opportunity to embrace progressive regime change/evolution instead of gunning people down.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#15

Post by JabavuAdams »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11
blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

One thing I'm not aware of is a state action that kills some citizens, where instead of suppressing the victim's stories, the state lauds them as heroes and martyrs.

E.g. Okay, we violently suppressed this protest for the greater good (we claim), but let's not forget the victims. We'll erect monuments. It's on us now to remember them and to make the future worthy of their sacrifice.

Would that incite more rebellion, or pacify a lot of the populace. Yeah, we did it. It was harsh. But it was necessary. You'll thank us in 20 years.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#16

Post by nickbauman »

racl101 wrote: post #9
wonderous wrote: post #4

Interesting how even after all this time that no one knows who "Tank Man" was and within China, few even know he existed at all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

Chalk it up to the Mandela Effect? Brace for this ... there .... was ... no tank man. Dun! dun! duunnnnnn!!!

What are you saying? I saw Tank Man live on TV as it was happening. If there really was no tank man, you have a lot of explaining to do.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#17

Post by vtange »

SurrealSoul wrote: post #7

Kind of a personal story, but my fiancé is from Beijing. She found out about Tiananmen square about a year ago. She only knew that she shouldn't ask about the Tiananmen incident growing up and that it was a bad thing that happened. She has been in the states for several years now and when she found out what really happened with our even blurry images and stories we have now it really changed her perspective on things…

And the worst part about having to move out of country to find out things that were censored/hidden? You'll be inclined to believe foreign nations have a negative bias towards China.

At least, that's China's (and Russia's) narrative.

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#18

Post by JabavuAdams »

ekianjo wrote: post #14
JabavuAdams wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

Tian an Men protests were peaceful and non-violent. Why do you need to suppress them using guns and tanks? That's the perfect opportunity to embrace progressive regime change/evolution instead of gunning people down.

So were the initial Syrian protests. The problem is, as a head of state, you're responsible for the whole populace. You don't know where it will end. It could literally end in the breakup and destruction of your country, never mind something as trivial as regime change.

EDIT> Or are you saying that peaceful protest could be met with some perhaps token concessions. Then if the protesters get violent, the state is justified in using violence?

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#19

Post by Sacho »

fludlight wrote: post #5

Student protests really scare older Chinese because they remember the reign of terror that the Red Guard kids perpetuated during the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s.

Wouldn't the "Red Guard kids" in the 1960s and the "older Chinese people" at Tiananmen have a large overlap?

Re: Hidden Away for 28 Years, Tiananmen Protest Pictures See Light of Day

#20

Post by k-mcgrady »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #11
blackbagboys wrote: post #2

An inspiring collection of photos, but I'd bet it attracts little interest outside a few select, irrelevant circles. One of the most heartbreaking thing about the massacre is not just that the mass murderers who ordered it were never held responsible but that today it barely even tarnishes their reputations, while the memory of their victims has been thoroughly suppressed.

I'm going to take a kind of despicable position. We don't know what would have happened had the protests been allowed to continue. China is a vast country with mostly poor, uneducated people -- especially so in 1989. Look at what happened in Syria. Look at the Arab spring. Is it just to kill hundreds, to prevent the slaughter of hundreds of thousands? If the answer is no, never, I don't see how we can have states at…

What you're saying is that it is better for people to live under authoritarian governments of dictatorships than die fighting for their freedom. It's not a despicable position but it's incredibly short-sighted.
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