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Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

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Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

I agree with bensummers. It is not about being a dick, it is about being treated fairly. You have been severely underpaid for a long time, and he acts like you can't have a life of your own but just be a robot-like jack-of-all-trades. If my boss didn't pay for my health bill and asked me to work while at the hospital I would definitely not let it go like that, you are a human being, moreover, you are helping him to g…

I do agree that my colleagues do need a little guidance in the situation as well. They are almost all new-hires right out of college and were never exposed to anything else.

With bills it comes down the items I listed before (housing, car, student loans, credit cards, utilities) Food/misc wasn't included.

The issue with this area is it's fairly stuck in the old' days. People expect to pay $200-$500 for a website, regardless of what it does. It could be one page, or it could have all the functionality they would ever dream of but only expect to pay a one-time fee.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#32
post #25
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree, dude you are making 26k a year. Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. He is lying about the 1099 being cheaper, that is only true if you are an S-Corporation, right now you are responsible for a little over 15% for social security, something that you are not if you are W2 or a corp. $…

Just as a tangent, because I didn't want to bother with my own Ask HN: > Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. I know, like the back of my hand: HTML, CSS, Photoshop (and Illustrator/InDesign/Premiere/etc), Javascript, PHP, Ruby (not specialized to Rails, but with a year or two of experience in it), a…

I agree with mnemonik.

You wouldn't be able to gain experience in those listed skills without using them for something. There has to be some work of yours out there somewhere. And if not, start doing some freelance work or launching some of your own ideas/projects onto the web. It's a great way to get real experience out there and extra rewarding when you see users interacting with your work!

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

I agree with bensummers. It is not about being a dick, it is about being treated fairly. You have been severely underpaid for a long time, and he acts like you can't have a life of your own but just be a robot-like jack-of-all-trades. If my boss didn't pay for my health bill and asked me to work while at the hospital I would definitely not let it go like that, you are a human being, moreover, you are helping him to g…

Sounds like my gf's work, where people expect to get a Facebook like where users post the content and they don't need to do anything, for a bargain price. It's a sad state of affairs, and teaching clients is a no-no, because a) They don't get it b) They may not hire you

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you witch to working full-time in your freelancing? I don't know if you can get more clients straight away, maybe (if your relation is good enough with them) you can ask your current clients for work recommendations, bootstrapping even more your full-time freelancing. I don't know the legalities and other related things aside, but I would make a rebellion, although you look in the worst position (you are being…

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

Why not convert your "1099 boss" into a real freelancer client? This involves a few simple steps:

1. Ask him to be "upgraded" to a real employee (he'll say no, as we suspect)

2. Tell him you understand his decision, and since he wants you to be freelance, you will work for him as a true freelancer, e.g. for a certain number of hours, at a certain hourly wage, at your own home, at the hours you choose.

3. He may "fire" you. However, if you are as indispensable as it sounds like you are, he will come crawling back to you. In any case, he won't fire you until he sucks know-how out of your brain, which he would do over the course of a month of freelance work. So you have some time to do the transition.

P.S. Leading a rebellion is only needed when you have no leverage. In fact, you have tons of leverage, you just don't understand or are unwilling to use it.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#35
I'm sure you're great, but I'm sick of seeing: "I have been doing web work since I was nine."

What's up with this? I was probably the most technology savvy kid to come out of my high school, and I'm still not even remotely close to saying something like this!

I bet that when you were 9, you couldn't even do most advanced algebra, let alone real web work.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#36
post #35

I'm sure you're great, but I'm sick of seeing: "I have been doing web work since I was nine." What's up with this? I was probably the most technology savvy kid to come out of my high school, and I'm still not even remotely close to saying something like this! I bet that when you were 9, you couldn't even do most advanced algebra, let alone real web work.

I'm sure your great as well!

Hell I'm 21 and I still can't do most advanced algebra. When I was nine my passion started working in GeoCities and Tripod. I don't know any nine year old who can actually do real web work. ;)

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#37

I mean no offense when I say this, but you're a great example of a "smart but clueless" employee dishonest startup founders prey on. At $500/week, you are making $26,000/year. Assuming you're a good developer (and now manager), you could probably pull in $120,000 working for Google or Facebook, which means you're losing $94,000/year (!) in opportunity cost (not even counting health benefits or other minor perks). You…

I thing renegotiation is out of the question. I feel even if I renegotiated and it ended up being the perfect compensation/benefits position the day-to-day work environment would become hostile -- and that is something I do not want to happen. I honestly don't know what I was thinking. -- Well actually I do: Back in 2008, a year and a half into college, I won a local business plan competition and dropped out. (The co…

You sound like a smart guy. Your failure thus far is an amazing and truly educational amount of experience that will benefit you short- and long-term. You really have a great deal more experience than many, and clearly you have drive and passion.

You're valuable and hardworking, so get the hell out of that shithole.

With your experience, you should be able to make some incredible contributions to any other startup that has a good product/service and actually cares about their employees.

$26,000 a year is ridiculously low... absurdly low. Hard-to-fathom low. If you feel like renegotiating would create hostility then that is far and away the biggest alarm that you need to get out of there.

As coffeemug said, "run, don't walk."

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#38
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

Why not convert your "1099 boss" into a real freelancer client? This involves a few simple steps: 1. Ask him to be "upgraded" to a real employee (he'll say no, as we suspect) 2. Tell him you understand his decision, and since he wants you to be freelance, you will work for him as a true freelancer, e.g. for a certain number of hours, at a certain hourly wage, at your own home, at the hours you choose. 3. He may "fire…

This could be a possibility. On #1 I know he will say no to. Actually, I believe all your steps would come out just as you laid them out there.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#39
post #8

You're talented and hardworking. Stop taking this crap and ask him to meet your reasonable demands or leave. I'm sure someone on HN here would be more than glad to hire you for another startup.

Personally, I would not even want to work for this company anymore, even with better terms. Not sure if there would be a point in trying to get some compensation for the last years, though (ie using the "you did some illegal stuff and I know about it" angle)? I probably wouldn't bother and just move on, but that might be where I am too soft.

Edit: reading some of the other comments, with respect to being too soft. Perhaps it would be worth consulting a lawyer, and let them do the dirty work. Being too soft and letting other people take advantage for you could be a good reason for hiring a hard-nosed lawyer.

The danger might be to be taken advantage of by the lawyer, too. But my mother actually once had a lawyer get her a lot of money from her employer, and he said "it is not only important because of the money, but because of you". I was really impressed by that - certainly dragging this nagging feeling around that you are a loser also takes it's toll, so fighting it out might be worth it.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#40
The really unfortunate things about your situation are:

1. You're probably legally misclassified as a contractor rather than a full-time employee. You should read IRS Rule 87-41 to understand why that is, but the really telling part is that you're carefully managed as to work down to the minute. Dead giveaway - you're an employee.

2. Since you're clearly an employee, you're subject to the protections of FMLA. My favorite nickname for FMLA is the "F*ing Leave Me Alone" Act. If you're hospitalized and your employer knows it, it's really unnecessary to invoke FMLA to receive its protections. Your employer violated it by requiring you to work while incapacitated.

3. Because you're misclassified, you're probably paying self-employment tax, so you're getting screwed coming and going.

4. Your employer is too lazy to figure out how to get benefits for small firms. Going to a trade association like the AeA would easily get you access to insurance at a good rate. I assume he's covered through his spouse, and, as such, doesn't need coverage. So he's letting you hang.

IANAL, but I've been an exec who has had to walk in and clean up quite a few shops doing illegal things like this. Here are some options.

A) Just leave. Easier said than done, obviously. Also, he almost certainly owes you back overtime as well as back taxes that he didn't deposit consistent with the IRC.

B) Contact your state's version of the Labor Board. Explain the situation, and see if they're able to take administrative action on your behalf. This might be a good option for you, because these actions are usually sealed, and they'll order the employer to provide null references in the future.

C) Get a lawyer and sue. This can get very messy very quickly, and the real downside of it is that since your pay rate is only about $12.50/hr, even if a court awarded you a year's salary, an attorney on contingency would take half of it, and you'd still be boned. Also, future employers have a way of finding out about employee lawsuits, and it makes you somewhat more unemployable since there's nothing that says they can't discriminate against you based on your past history of litigating against employers.

Now, an interesting side option is that I suspect that you don't have an ironclad Intellectual Property and Inventions Assignment agreement with the company, given that he's a management slob. Odds are that it's buried in your contractor agreement which is, itself, a piece of fiction. There might be a severability clause in it, but I bet a judge would vacate the entire agreement if given the chance. That means that you possibly OWN the intellectual property of the company. Which is to say, in effect, that you own the core asset of the company since the IP and the client list are probably its only assets.

I can't speak for you to say whether you WANT to own this company's core asset, and certainly if you owned the IP and licensed it back to the founder, you'd have the joy of having to continue working with him for as long as that went on. But since the company is successfully signing customers and is turning over about $400k a year, that may well be a lucrative path to pursue.

Anyhow, the way you'd look into that is to contact the local branch of the nearest major municipality's bar association. Almost all of them have a referral service, and it's usually cheap or free. An attorney will probably give you an hour or so to go over the case and figure out if it's a good idea to act or just jump ship.

I wish you luck, and I hope your next employer appreciates you more than your current one does.

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