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Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

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Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#21

Post by BerislavLopac »

datawalke wrote: post #5
chrisclark1729 wrote: post #3

That seems rough. I'm actually going through a similar (albeit not as extreme) situation, which is why I'm at home on a Saturday night trying to generate leads for my freelance business. Two major points from me: First, you shouldn't get angry. You're there of your own volition and have to make the best of your situation. I know it's rough to hear, but getting angry will just waste your time and make it harder to be…

Thank you for your advice. Along with doing this business I do run a fairly good freelance business to make up for the lack of pay. The freelance work is what really makes me happy. The clients are always great and seem to love the attention I give them and the work I generate for them. However it does make it a bit hard mentally and physically for me and my family. Getting home at six, seeing my family for three or…

Seems to me like you should quit, and devote all of your time to growing your freelance business. It might be a bit tight financially for a while, but things should get better if you devote enough time.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#22

Post by coffeemug »

I mean no offense when I say this, but you're a great example of a "smart but clueless" employee dishonest startup founders prey on. At $500/week, you are making $26,000/year. Assuming you're a good developer (and now manager), you could probably pull in $120,000 working for Google or Facebook, which means you're losing $94,000/year (!) in opportunity cost (not even counting health benefits or other minor perks). You said nothing about equity, but assuming you will own 1% of the company after four years, and assuming the company exits for $50mil, your equity will be worth $500k, while you could have earned $376k working a stable job (again not counting health insurance, plus Facebook gives equity too). Considering that a potential exit opportunity is associated with large risk, the expected value of working for such a startup is miniscule, compared to opportunity cost.

You are not acting to your own advantage financially or emotionally. One option you have is to renegotiate your salary with the founder, and considering how hard it is to find great people, and how little he pays you, I have a strong feeling he'll budge. But if you have options (and it's your market now), do you really want to work for someone who has no ethical standards?

BTW, we're hiring: www.rethinkdb.com/jobs.

EDIT: just read your comment that you do not have any equity. Run, don't walk.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#23

Post by X-Istence »

datawalke wrote: post #15
wisty wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I doubt that the guy is actually going to give you any equity. You could say you are leaving unless he gives you an offer on paper (which should include some notion of the percent of the company you will get - if he just offers 100,000 shares you can bet he will set total shares to 100,000,000,000 to screw you out of owning a real chunk), but he'll probably call your bluff. As another poster suggested, get…

Agreed. Originally he brought this up and I was thinking like 10 to 20%. He then said something to the degree of a half percent per year. I unfortunately did sign a non-compete. The founder has pretty tight connections within this industry. It would be hard to steal clients to begin with -- I make sure all of the work is perfect and the clients are happy. I also would feel unethical doing so.

Check your state law, non-compete may not be legal.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#24

Post by RBerenguel »

datawalke wrote: post #17
RBerenguel wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you witch to working full-time in your freelancing? I don't know if you can get more clients straight away, maybe (if your relation is good enough with them) you can ask your current clients for work recommendations, bootstrapping even more your full-time freelancing. I don't know the legalities and other related things aside, but I would make a rebellion, although you look in the worst position (you are being…

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

I agree with bensummers. It is not about being a dick, it is about being treated fairly. You have been severely underpaid for a long time, and he acts like you can't have a life of your own but just be a robot-like jack-of-all-trades.

If my boss didn't pay for my health bill and asked me to work while at the hospital I would definitely not let it go like that, you are a human being, moreover, you are helping him to get money. And you are almost getting no money back.

As about lawsuits, it greatly depends on how you focus it. You are being exploited, you know it (and he knows it). You could probably sue him right now. And telling your colleagues about how work was like there is not unethical, nor illegal, it is helpful for them.

Couldn't you just balance on paying for more bandwidth (don't know the prices where you live) with just more freelancing? When you say "bills" you mean just that, or include expenses like food and the like?

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#25

Post by derefr »

kls wrote: post #4
patio11 wrote: post #2

I realize that feelings of loyalty to an employer can skew one's perspective on things. (Oh boy, do I.) You need to hear someone say this, so I'll be a bit blunt: 1) You are being drastically underpaid relative to your market worth. 2) The fact of you being underpaid will cause material hardship for your wife and children. 3) Your boss is exploiting you. Illegally, to boot. 4) Your boss will not stop exploiting you.…

I have to agree, dude you are making 26k a year. Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. He is lying about the 1099 being cheaper, that is only true if you are an S-Corporation, right now you are responsible for a little over 15% for social security, something that you are not if you are W2 or a corp. $…

Just as a tangent, because I didn't want to bother with my own Ask HN:

> Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language.

I know, like the back of my hand: HTML, CSS, Photoshop (and Illustrator/InDesign/Premiere/etc), Javascript, PHP, Ruby (not specialized to Rails, but with a year or two of experience in it), and C/C++. I've had more than a year's experience in: Java, Lua, IA32 and ARM assembler, Haskell and Clojure. On top of that, I have years of Windows and Linux sysadmining, DBA, and tech support/computer repair knowledge.

...but I'm only in my first year of University, and have literally zero measurable work experience with any of this stuff (no previous employers in any sort of technical field, no references, no portfolio..) In short, I have no proof that I can do any of the stuff I can do... what should I do?

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#26

Post by elbrodeur »

Damn. After reading your post and the comments I want to emphasize a few things:

- You are being screwed. This has been amply covered. - You are worth your weight in gold. If you really work 10 hours a day, hang out with your family then work into the late night... you are every CTO/VP of Engineering's wet dream. - You have rights. The law, in many places, is built to protect people like you from exploitative situations like this. Just looking at a glance, it seems like you could - if you so chose - bring this guy to court and walk away with a more equitable amount of compensation [INTERNET CAVEAT MACHINE ALERT: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.] - You deserve better. With your work ethic and your attitude I hope the next group of people you work with give you your dues

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#27

Post by gojomo »

datawalke wrote: post #17
RBerenguel wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you witch to working full-time in your freelancing? I don't know if you can get more clients straight away, maybe (if your relation is good enough with them) you can ask your current clients for work recommendations, bootstrapping even more your full-time freelancing. I don't know the legalities and other related things aside, but I would make a rebellion, although you look in the worst position (you are being…

I do believe life is a good deal of weighing risks and taking them at a period of time. Jumping right off to freelancing would be too uncertain at the moment. Bills come to around $1,500/mo. Freelancing at the moment generates around $900-$1200/mo. But I currently only have the bandwidth to handle 1 or 2 projects per month. On the rebellion side I would not feel ethical doing so. I don't want this guy's business to c…

But how much freelancing could you handle if you didn't have the exploitative full-time job? (How does your effective rate-per-hour vary at the main job vs. freelancing gigs? And, might you be undercharging for your freelancing as much as you're undercharging for day job?)

The ethical approach is to state clearly what you need to continue and if they can't meet that, you move on with proper notice. However, you are being underpaid and both the treatment-as-contractor and constant-low-pay-in-the-face-of-overtime are of dubious legality.

If by your acquiescence to unfair/illegal conditions you are then effectively encouraging their perpetuation, and their extension to other junior employees, and further falling behind in providing for your family, than 'not causing trouble' is the unethical path.

If the business would crash and burn without you, you are a key employee who deserves better pay and equity. But from the sloppy way things seem to have been handled so far, you might not even be able to trust a stock grant from your employer. (Even if he is in some ways charismatic or effective, you may have run across a bad actor who will press every advantage against a person who won't be personally/legally assertive in response.)

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#28

Post by datawalke »

coffeemug wrote: post #22

I mean no offense when I say this, but you're a great example of a "smart but clueless" employee dishonest startup founders prey on. At $500/week, you are making $26,000/year. Assuming you're a good developer (and now manager), you could probably pull in $120,000 working for Google or Facebook, which means you're losing $94,000/year (!) in opportunity cost (not even counting health benefits or other minor perks). You…

I thing renegotiation is out of the question. I feel even if I renegotiated and it ended up being the perfect compensation/benefits position the day-to-day work environment would become hostile -- and that is something I do not want to happen.

I honestly don't know what I was thinking. -- Well actually I do: Back in 2008, a year and a half into college, I won a local business plan competition and dropped out. (The competition gave office space and some startup capital.) The college I was in was a small community college and the classes weren't that great for the IT field. Going into college I thought everyone would have the same passion I did. Into the first semester I was helping teach my major related courses.

Unfortunately, not having any sense about business and being somewhat misguided by my other founders, the business flopped. I started a second business which did slightly better, and again won the business plan competition again. However our overhead was too high compared to the cashflow coming in. We started working with the company mentioned in this post and I was basically made an initial offer to work exclusively for them. (Mistake.)

Going back to my reasoning: I felt that if this company did go somewhere, that there would no longer be a need or a way to get roadblocked by not having a degree. I am a strong believer in work and passion than a piece of paper. I know I would have never hired any of my classmates from that college.

Although the justification is/was not sound at all. Getting out know is the only way for me to continue to seize my potential. I know continuing down this path will only lead to my own destruction.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#29

Post by datawalke »

elbrodeur wrote: post #26

Damn. After reading your post and the comments I want to emphasize a few things: - You are being screwed. This has been amply covered. - You are worth your weight in gold. If you really work 10 hours a day, hang out with your family then work into the late night... you are every CTO/VP of Engineering's wet dream. - You have rights. The law, in many places, is built to protect people like you from exploitative situati…

Thank you for the kind words.

I think the key to my next situation is making sure the next group of people I work with give me my fair share.

I think this falls into what a lot of people experience is the doubt in not knowing what you are worth. In my area typical entry programming positions are at around 35k/yr. I feel my time and experience puts me well past any entry based position. I am always somewhat unsure of exactly where I stand.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#30

Post by mnemonik »

derefr wrote: post #25
kls wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree, dude you are making 26k a year. Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. He is lying about the 1099 being cheaper, that is only true if you are an S-Corporation, right now you are responsible for a little over 15% for social security, something that you are not if you are W2 or a corp. $…

Just as a tangent, because I didn't want to bother with my own Ask HN: > Starting salary for a fresh junior is 40k and that is just someone who know HTML, CSS and Photoshop let alone if they actually know a server side language. I know, like the back of my hand: HTML, CSS, Photoshop (and Illustrator/InDesign/Premiere/etc), Javascript, PHP, Ruby (not specialized to Rails, but with a year or two of experience in it), a…

I don't have an answer to your question. I am suspicious that you have zero measurable experience. Are you sure? You are familiar with multiple web stacks, but don't have a single website you can point people to? You were a sysadmin for years and don't have a reference? You have zero contributions open source projects (others or your own)?

I think you might be able to find something that hints at your experience.

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