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The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

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131–140 of 564 posts

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#131

That suggests that U.S. costs are high due to general inefficiency [...] Americans have simply ponied up more and more cash over the years while ignoring the fact that they were getting less and less for their money. There's a general effect in political systems, that if a law takes $20 from 1,000,000 people and gives $100,000 to 200 people, the people who lose money won't have enough incentive to put up a big fight;…

>campaign finance reform, perhaps? Abso-fucking-lutely. I think in order to run at any levels of office, you should be using public money. For simplification, let's say if one wants to run for president, they can only use whatever is in the FEC public coffers. In return, we levy a federal FEC tax to boost it way higher than its current rates. We replicate a similar tax at state and local levels. Completely remove pri…

If businesses have a hundred different ways to gain special market advantages by simply having political influence then 100% their money should not be able to influence politics.

This should be more obvious in US (and Canadian) politics than it is. But politicians are rarely willing to admit their malleability when it comes to both businesses and non-profit organizations (or special interest groups) influencing them. So the problem persists.

This is a big thing many small-government conservatives seem to miss. They think that capping financing of political parties is anti-business. But in reality it's only incumbent businesses who fleece the government for contracts or exploit government policy to create barriers of entry for their competitors who back ending these policies.

Even though small/medium business represents 60%+ of employment they are largely ignored policy-wise. Then when big-corps exploit market dynamics then ever more regulation are put in place that only hurts the small businesses rather than the big corps (see: minimum wage).

So those of us who support small-government, we're often left with only choosing between big government liberals who are indifferent to the ROI of ever-expanding government power/tax base or small government conservatives who let corporate influence in politics run free. It's difficult to tell which one results in the most abuse these days.

Even if this stops being a problem it has existed for decades and these 'gray' connections between politics and business is everywhere in North America. It would take decades to reverse their influence which is a shame because it's very existence is self-reinforcing (much like those organizations whose very existence depends on the continuation of government financing as opposed to depending on their utility to the public).

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#132
post #110
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that as though dams can't be built without killing people. They aren't gifts bestowed by the gods upon the completion of sufficient human sacrifice. Deaths and injuries are minimal with construction equipment and safety techniques.

The Hoover Dam was build for about $800 million inflation adjusted. I'm 100% certain that you couldn't build that structure today for that much without killing people.

So are you saying Japan builds infra cheaper than US by killing people?

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't explain the difference in time/cost between current-day USA and current-day France or Japan. All three have modern safety and environmental regulations, yet two can complete jobs faster and for less money.

Maybe you don't understand the real incentives at work? In the US, it is jobs, jobs, jobs. Long, drawn out projects keep hardhats working for years. It's not about outcomes, which is a big part of the problem.

Possibly true, but the parent to my comment suggested the problem was safety/environmental regulation, which is unlikely to be the main contributor to the problem.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#134
post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

This is an interesting theory, but any attempt at explaining why the US in particular is bad at large-scale infrastructure also has to explain why other countries are so much better at it.

The litigousness argument seems to be interesting from that perspective, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe that France or Germany are less detail-oriented in their planning, given that the same tools that allow better blueprinting are available everywhere.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#135
An African government official visits Europe. There, a European government official invites him to his luxury home. The African is shocked.

He asks "How can you afford such a house if you a just a government official?"

The European says: "Look out of the window. can you see the bridge?"

The African: "Yes"

The European: "See, the government paid for two train tracks but the bridge has only one."

The African says: "I understand".

2 years later the European official visits the African in Africa. He invites him into his house and his house is a luxury palace.

Now the European is shocked. He asks "How can you afford such a palace? Recently you were so impressed with house and now you live in a palace?"

The African says: "Look out of the window. can you see the bridge our taxpayers paid for?"

The European: "No."

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>campaign finance reform, perhaps? Abso-fucking-lutely. I think in order to run at any levels of office, you should be using public money. For simplification, let's say if one wants to run for president, they can only use whatever is in the FEC public coffers. In return, we levy a federal FEC tax to boost it way higher than its current rates. We replicate a similar tax at state and local levels. Completely remove pri…

I'm running for president, fund my trips around the country, and my ads on TV. Nobody in their right mind would elect me, but I have yet to see a fair way to exclude me.

I'm a private company (or private billionaire). I like your opponent. I put ads up on TV for them using my money. How can anyone stop me without it being a First Amendment violation?

And while it isn't giving that politician money, there are plenty who will recognize that my paying for their add is giving them a service that is worth money. It isn't quite as direct as donating, but the effect is the same.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#137
post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

>This means every time there's a question, it has to be submitted through a formal process, tracked, answered, documented. I don't know why you think proper change control is a bad thing. In both software and systems engineering you submit change requests that are tracked, reviewed, assessed for risk, approved and documented. You do this to create an audit trail to identify "how we got here". Any concerns? It's docum…

OP points out the costs of this. You point out the benefits.

Both true. But the interesting question is if and when the costs outweigh the benefits.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This means every time there's a question, it has to be submitted through a formal process, tracked, answered, documented. I don't know why you think proper change control is a bad thing. In both software and systems engineering you submit change requests that are tracked, reviewed, assessed for risk, approved and documented. You do this to create an audit trail to identify "how we got here". Any concerns? It's docum…

I think you're misreading his comment. It's not bad, it's just more expensive than not doing it. Thus, infrastructure built today costs more.

I think he read the comment mostly right, and you're both missing there is a gaussian distribution to the effectiveness of change control

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#139
post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

Perhaps also Back In The Day, Big Picture things were over-engineered.

I guess also, ever do a home renovation on a house > 40 years old? You usually walk into a disaster of things not up to code. These days, it would just be done correctly, just as cheap as possible, and not built to last. Most recent housing developments near here are just ways for developers to make money and run, as the infrastructure (housing, not utilities, etc) is not going to last all that long. The developers don't care - they'll be enjoying their profits States away, as the city that is home to their developments are quickly crumbling.

Not that I'm bitter on the changing landscape of my city, or anything. But a housing boom has dark sides.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#140
post #135

An African government official visits Europe. There, a European government official invites him to his luxury home. The African is shocked. He asks "How can you afford such a house if you a just a government official?" The European says: "Look out of the window. can you see the bridge?" The African: "Yes" The European: "See, the government paid for two train tracks but the bridge has only one." The African says: "I u…

Lmao. To one who was born and raised in Africa, this is both funny and, too often, lamentably accurate.
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