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The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

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Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#91

I have been wondering lately if we have become so dependent on certain sectors of the US economy (housing, infrastructure, healthcare, education) that risk aversion is suffocating innovation. No one wants to send their kid to an unproven, experimental university. No city wants to beta test a new style of road building. No patient wants to be the first to try a new treatment. We are so dependent on these things that t…

Your question reminded me of the resistance of PEX adoption in California, even though it has been widely accepted in Canada. http://www.remodeling.hw.net/products/house-systems/californ... I was surprised the article didn't address regulation much nor the fear of litigation (when I googled for canada pex legal, I found class action suits...)

The obvious next question being, _are_ PEX pipes safe? Perhaps California is just ahead of the curve banning it.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#92
post #82

I thought about this when I visited the Hoover Dam. The audacity of the thing and sheer impossibility of doing anything remotely like it in today's America makes it seem like a relic from an ancient civilization. It felt like visiting the pyramids in Egypt.

Hypothesis: nicotine is a nootropic [0] good for say, 6 IQ points on average (Danish study I saw referenced, not linking unless I can find the original paper). The Hoover Dam and many other great infrastructure projects were created in the earlier 20th century when smoking was pervasive. Perhaps we were somewhat smarter in aggregate back then and that's why we can't engineer infrastructure at the same level anymore.…

I don't believe we are lacking of people not smart enough to construct a dam. It's simply come down to litigation that prevents large scale infrastructure from being constructed. It's very difficult to build infrastructure in California due to lawsuits from environmental groups for example.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#93
I suspect that part of the problem is that expertise doesn't reside in monolithic corporations and governments anymore, but in specialist consultant companies that have relatively high fixed costs and thus must charge more to make a profit. In addition I suspect that there are a lot of lookalike consultant companies that charge a lot of money in exchange for kickbacks but don't provide any value.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#94
post #43
post #30

Durability. Its one thing to quickly and cheaply add infrastructure, and I've traveled the world to places where this is accomplished at a dizzying pace. Its another thing altogether to engineer and build projects that can endure over time and in the face of natural and unnatural disaster. Yes, the US is overdue for infrastructure investment. Yes, its costly and unproductive Federal and State entitlement obligations…

It doesn't fit. Railway systems in Japan and France (taken as example in the article) are high quality and last long as well. Yet construction railway is way less expensive there.

Rail is a special case because land issues and near zero indigenous maglev tech in the US. Think roads, airports, train stations, bridges, dams, etc. And, as importantly, the US doesn't export subsidize infrastructure companies and projects as does France or Japan. The exception is energy infrastructure.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#95

That suggests that U.S. costs are high due to general inefficiency [...] Americans have simply ponied up more and more cash over the years while ignoring the fact that they were getting less and less for their money. There's a general effect in political systems, that if a law takes $20 from 1,000,000 people and gives $100,000 to 200 people, the people who lose money won't have enough incentive to put up a big fight;…

>campaign finance reform, perhaps?

Abso-fucking-lutely. I think in order to run at any levels of office, you should be using public money. For simplification, let's say if one wants to run for president, they can only use whatever is in the FEC public coffers. In return, we levy a federal FEC tax to boost it way higher than its current rates. We replicate a similar tax at state and local levels. Completely remove private donations and PACs and all that shit from the lawbooks. A fuckload of people want to run for president? Well, you better get creative with your tiny slice of the pie. Show us how fiscally responsible you really are.

People would scream and holler about it not being American, but it's one of the only ways, I think, to really take a large stab at our chronic corruption.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#96
post #73
post #41

The solution is shrinking the state to the bare minimum and making as many transactions as possible voluntary.

I wish the Libertarians who post this solution ("shrink the state to the bare minimum") would ever actually show us where it's working in practice, to provide a decent quality of life for people. In China, they're building mad infrastructure--big state. In Europe, they're providing a good quality of life--big state. The "small state" places I can think of, none of them are places people are flocking to for an improve…

Not a libertarian, but Japan apparently has 16 private railway companies, most of which are profitable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Japan#Major_...

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#97
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish the Libertarians who post this solution ("shrink the state to the bare minimum") would ever actually show us where it's working in practice, to provide a decent quality of life for people. In China, they're building mad infrastructure--big state. In Europe, they're providing a good quality of life--big state. The "small state" places I can think of, none of them are places people are flocking to for an improve…

Let's be honest, there are not that many examples to choose from. What I like about China is, it illustrates how effective a mostly benevolent dictatorship is. It is the optimal political system imho, provided it remains benevolent of course, which is no small feat. Provided they don't trip and fall, if China is not the absolute supreme leader of the planet in 25 - 50 years I will be shocked.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it benevolent. Just because it's not Idi Amin or Pol Pot doesn't mean it's benevolent. In fact, there is a valid question as to whether any regime, anywhere is benevolent[1].

But rather than getting bogged down in quantifying the exact degree of its benevolence, it's key not to let your larger and more important point get lost alongside that red herring, and it's one that gets little press here: China and SE Asia have shown, over a period of decades, that heavy-handed state-guided development alongside market forces is a credible third alternative to the One True neoliberal agenda the West has pushed since the 1980s.

Japan and South Korea also "grew up" in a heavily state-sponsored manner and with closed private economies. Despite its visible lack of conformity to official American prescriptions about how to do things, the US tolerated it during the Cold War as part of the general bargain with those countries, in which they were allowed to develop as they saw fit and to have unrestricted and preferential access to America's bottomless consumer market. In return, they paid in unwavering anticommunist allegiance.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GPSLHI/

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#98
I'm pretty sure we're so far invested in being crappy at government that we can't feasibly turn back without inflicting a lot of pain.

Admittedly anecdotal, but after having lived near two major DOE national laboratories (where >40% of my neighbors worked at the lab), I wouldn't be surprised if 60-80% of the workers at these labs could be eliminated under a combination of audit-based reform, regulatory reform, and management changes. Without any change in output or results. I've listened to descriptions of what people do at these labs, and it blows me away how low productivity they are compared to the private sector. I've known people who work entire workweeks that could be consolidated into 3-5 hours of work, and they're willing to admit it. In fact, those that would try to change from within have told me they would feel vulnerable to retaliation if they went through with it.

And that's before we get into the shitshow that is federal contract work. We've turned federal contract work into a goldmine for whoever has enough lawyers to win a bid. And we don't even know how many people are employed doing that contract work [0]!

At this point, meaningful reform means taking 10's of millions of people and forcing productivity on them to the point where most of them are unnecessary. We could probably double the unemployment rate with the right reforms. That's why it won't happen.

[0] http://www.govexec.com/contracting/2015/03/even-cbo-stumped-...

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#99
post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

Yeah but the bureaucracy makes a lot of money for itself and grows ever larger. Basically you want to treat the people executing the plan as smart adaptable agents rather than dumb robots.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#100
Related to what we might label "modern" infrastructure, I just got back from a trip visiting the outskirts of Illinois.

The towns there are small, but full of people hungry for opportunities and good work.

Yet everywhere you go there is no work to be done. Businesses—even big box stores like Walmart or Target—are closed down. Homes lay vacant despite their reasonably cheap (at least for someone living in Silicon Valley) $20,000 price tag. Even churches in the area have to close their doors but leave their steeples standing, unable to draw in an audience or—and most importantly—any money to maintain things.

This isn't Detroit I'm talking about, it's a fairly typical suburb of a larger metropolitan area in the midwest.

The answer for many of these people has largely and loudly been: "Bring back jobs from overseas! Stop outsourcing work to China!"

But of course that's not a valid answer, since the problem is that the jobs these towns once knew now belong to machines which can work tens of times harder and longer at a fraction of the cost of their former human counterparts. Yes, some of the work has gone overseas, but much of it has just become "modernized" by technology.

And here's the thing: the infrastructure for things as simple as Internet access in these parts of the US just isn't there.

So nobody goes to school to learn programming or design or how to be a modern entrepreneur because they (the individuals and schools) just don't have any connection to those parts of the landscape. And when they do, their model is wildly out of date.

One of the Universities I visited and, later, a high school had each just opened a computer lab for students in which the goal wasn't to help students learn programming, or design, or anything like that, but merely how to type.

This of course added on top of the decrepit roads, buildings, etc. The state is wildly out of money because it can't put people to work, and the people can't work because the infrastructure just isn't there. It's depressing to see, really. I want to know how we can improve this, and what someone living on the other side of the country might do to help.

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