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The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

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Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#52

Vague talk of inefficiency in construction isn't really very informative. Has anyone ever done a study where they take two very similar projects — building a medium sized office building, for example — in the US and China, and following them both from beginning to end, auditing exactly how much money and time is spent on each stage? It seems like this would provide a useful basis for comparison.

Wouldn't they vary wildly due to OSHA and other requirements like permits and bribes?

yes, the point of the experiment is to quantify the difference between the two settings

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#53
post #18

This reflects in health care as well. American health care costs about twice as much as it does in every other first-world nation. Those systems run the gamut from fully socialist to mostly privatized, but they all share a common feature - they provide universal coverage at half the cost of the American system. That says there's something uniquely broken in our model. Infrastructure? Same thing. There's something dis…

But bear in mind what you just said IS NOT a valid argument for socialized medicine--it is an argument for market reform, or for looking at what is really going on in healthcare (hint: Wall Street).

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#54
I recently ran into the MDOT project manager for a rebuild/expansion of a section of I-75. With some googling I found that she was working on the project since 2001 - construction started in 2016 and is not scheduled to be completed until 2030.

So she will be working on the project for 30 years; her entire career... something is pretty broken about the government structures around these projects.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#55

The fastest that I've seen infrastructure put up in the US is where there are toll roads being built. I suspect this is because there is a high incentivize to get a toll road up quickly and start generating revenue to pay back the initial investment. Residents generally hate tolls, but its a good motivator for infrastructure to go up quickly. I never understood why similar incentives wouldn't kick in for mass transit…

I'm guessing most are publicly funded so the incentive is not seen as an investment needing a return - or, at least the urgency of return is diminished

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#56
One important factor unmentioned so far: Federalism. The US has very strong state and municipal governments compared to France and Japan. In many cases, any one of the three can veto a project. A new commuter rail line under the Hudson River connecting NYC and NJ was begun in 2009 and NJ Gov Chris Christie killed it in 2010 (citing cost overruns), after $600m had already been spent.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#57

My brother and father (concrete construction) would probably lay the blame on onerous regulation. They regularly complain about nit-picky engineers with their insistence on (in their words) unreasonable slavish devotion to engineering specifications. I'm not on the jobsite so I don't actually know. I wonder is our construction regulations are much more stringent than other western nations?

Count your blessings. Construction can be much harder in other countries for reasons beyond engineering and safety. Italy, for example, is a real estate developers nightmare. Every rock or patch of dirt has a decent chance of sitting atop an Ancient Greek or Roman ruin, and the process to ensure that construction won't damage any heretofore unknown ruins is agonizingly slow. It boils down to political power and cultu…

Well, we used to be, but not really these days. At least I don't see it much. Look at UAE or Singapore and see what they're up to.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#58

I have been wondering lately if we have become so dependent on certain sectors of the US economy (housing, infrastructure, healthcare, education) that risk aversion is suffocating innovation. No one wants to send their kid to an unproven, experimental university. No city wants to beta test a new style of road building. No patient wants to be the first to try a new treatment. We are so dependent on these things that t…

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Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#59

That suggests that U.S. costs are high due to general inefficiency [...] Americans have simply ponied up more and more cash over the years while ignoring the fact that they were getting less and less for their money. There's a general effect in political systems, that if a law takes $20 from 1,000,000 people and gives $100,000 to 200 people, the people who lose money won't have enough incentive to put up a big fight;…

Milton Friedman: "The beneficiaries are concentrated, and the payers are diffused"

kinda like facebook.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#60

It's not that we have forgotten. It's the fact that regulation, time to get approval, and other red tape make the timeline longer. Gone are the days when things just get done.

But, from what the article was pointing out we're comparing place like france and japan which have as many if not more regulations.

i wonder what compliance is actually like.

for instance: countries X, and Z could both have the same list of rules on the books, but folks in country X actually comply with the rules even when nobody is looking, whereas folks in country Z just look at the rules and ignore all the ones they think are stupid.

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