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The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

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Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#101

I don't know if "forgotten" as used in the title is the correct word so much as just "out of practice." Look at this list of infrastructure projects in China in the last decade or so: http://www.businessinsider.com/giant-chinese-infrastructure-... It's hard not to be impressed by that list. And China is undertaking these scale projects abroad as well from Latin America to Africa. It's should be no surprise that you g…

china is still industrializing and will be for a while yet, of course they get great roi from their infrastructure projects

Even a country that has completed their industrialization such as the US stands to gain massive ROI from infrastructure projects.

Driving through the Holland Tunnel into or out of NYC during rush hour its not hard to quantify the cost to the economy in terms of lost productivity.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#102
post #82

I thought about this when I visited the Hoover Dam. The audacity of the thing and sheer impossibility of doing anything remotely like it in today's America makes it seem like a relic from an ancient civilization. It felt like visiting the pyramids in Egypt.

Hypothesis: nicotine is a nootropic [0] good for say, 6 IQ points on average (Danish study I saw referenced, not linking unless I can find the original paper). The Hoover Dam and many other great infrastructure projects were created in the earlier 20th century when smoking was pervasive. Perhaps we were somewhat smarter in aggregate back then and that's why we can't engineer infrastructure at the same level anymore.…

When they built the Hover Dam people lived in tents. In the desert. Without air conditioning. And, there was during the height of construction, (from memory so forgive inexactness) one day off a year. Christmas Day. And that was optional.

And people were happy to be working because they were in many cases about half starved. So they put up with it.

Contrast that with now. Medium articles about toxic passive aggressive workplaces from people making $120K/year and who spend a lot of that screwing around and in meetings. In air conditioned offices. And that's just the start!

Not suggesting we return to the bad old days, but that is one of the major differences. Nicotine is an extremely minor one.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#103
post #18

This reflects in health care as well. American health care costs about twice as much as it does in every other first-world nation. Those systems run the gamut from fully socialist to mostly privatized, but they all share a common feature - they provide universal coverage at half the cost of the American system. That says there's something uniquely broken in our model. Infrastructure? Same thing. There's something dis…

But bear in mind what you just said IS NOT a valid argument for socialized medicine--it is an argument for market reform, or for looking at what is really going on in healthcare (hint: Wall Street).

Why do you feel the need to point this out, when he mentions mostly privatized and socialized in the same sentence? You may as well have said that it IS NOT a valid argument for mostly privatized medicine.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#104

The fastest that I've seen infrastructure put up in the US is where there are toll roads being built. I suspect this is because there is a high incentivize to get a toll road up quickly and start generating revenue to pay back the initial investment. Residents generally hate tolls, but its a good motivator for infrastructure to go up quickly. I never understood why similar incentives wouldn't kick in for mass transit…

Americans generally have an aversion to public transit for anything beyond a air travel. Just look at the current mess NJ Transit & Amtrak find themselves in with regards to the Hudson River crossing -- some century-old tunnels and an almost-as-old drawbridge that are beyond capacity. Replacements had been funded and ground had been broken, but that money was then diverted for surface roads and highways.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#105
post #71

The US hasn't forgotten. Nor is this unique to the US. It seems to be a widespread issue in the developed world. The problem is that labour is simply too expensive now. And, to a lesser, extent, so is real estate. In the 2000s Australia experienced an unprecedented resources boom fuelled by China's growth. This especially impacted Western Australia and Queensland. WA in particular is rich in iron ore, oil and gas and…

The article specifically claims labour costs aren't that much more than in other locations, Japan in particular. Certainly not enough to explain the huge differences in project budgets.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#106

I have been wondering lately if we have become so dependent on certain sectors of the US economy (housing, infrastructure, healthcare, education) that risk aversion is suffocating innovation. No one wants to send their kid to an unproven, experimental university. No city wants to beta test a new style of road building. No patient wants to be the first to try a new treatment. We are so dependent on these things that t…

> No patient wants to be the first to try a new treatment. Plenty of patients are willing to try new treatments. New treatments are incredibly expensive, but unlike in other countries and industries, old treatments/technologies continue to get more and more expensive. The problem there is that pricing is totally obfuscated, and providers are able to get monopolistic profits as a result. The government could step in a…

In medicine and higher education, at least, money has shifted dramatically from actual useful services to administrative overhead.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#107
post #80

I don't know the answers, but as someone who works in the industry (on the design side). I think a big unmentioned factor is probably liability and the prospect of litigation. If you look at old blueprints for projects in the past, they are a LOT less detailed. They had to be, because it was physically more difficult to produce them since they had to be drawn by hand. A lot was left to the contractor to figure out in…

>This means every time there's a question, it has to be submitted through a formal process, tracked, answered, documented.

I don't know why you think proper change control is a bad thing. In both software and systems engineering you submit change requests that are tracked, reviewed, assessed for risk, approved and documented. You do this to create an audit trail to identify "how we got here". Any concerns? It's documented in the ticket.

Now when it comes to civil engineering projects, where bridges can collapse, you should WANT that kind of rigorous change control of tracking, approving, and documenting.

Yes, documenting change control requires more work, but it also saves lives and creates an audit trail in case of a grave error.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#108

That suggests that U.S. costs are high due to general inefficiency [...] Americans have simply ponied up more and more cash over the years while ignoring the fact that they were getting less and less for their money. There's a general effect in political systems, that if a law takes $20 from 1,000,000 people and gives $100,000 to 200 people, the people who lose money won't have enough incentive to put up a big fight;…

If the explanation is some fundamental law of economics/politics as you seem to be suggesting, what is the reason the USA is afflicted more by the problem than other first world nations, or than the USA of a century ago?

The U.S. political system is remarkably vulnerable to pressure from interest groups because power is so fragmented. We have three branches of government at the federal level, with a bicameral legislature, and 50 individual states, each with three branches of government and plethora of local governments. And you need them all on board to do anything big.

Imagine that you are the Sierra Club and you want to block construction of a new highway. You can lobby:

* The President, who signs the appropriations bill * EPA, Department of Transportation, and any other three-letter federal agency that gets to weigh in on the project * Congressmen and Senators of affected regions/states, and remember that Senators can filibuster legislation to make it require a super-majority * State governors * State legislators * Local governments whose land the road will pass through * Indian tribes, if their land is affected

And if above doesn't work, you can sue in federal/state court.

All that adds to the time and cost of a construction project, assuming that it will be even approved. And once its approved? You still have a million ways to delay/obstruct the project through lawsuits and lobbying the bureaucratic process.

That's why there are no 'shovel ready' projects. We'll never be able to build another Hoover Dam or the Interstate Highway system.

Obviously other countries have division of power too. But the effect is much less pronounced.

EDIT: As for why the U.S. of a century ago wasn't as paralyzed, well, that's partly because of the growth of the administrative state (bureaucracy), growing importance of interest groups as sources of campaign funds, more regulations in general (which makes lawsuits possible), and fragmentation of party discipline.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#109
post #64
post #18

This reflects in health care as well. American health care costs about twice as much as it does in every other first-world nation. Those systems run the gamut from fully socialist to mostly privatized, but they all share a common feature - they provide universal coverage at half the cost of the American system. That says there's something uniquely broken in our model. Infrastructure? Same thing. There's something dis…

> mostly privatized Where's that?

Everywhere outside the "developed world". By the numbers, the global norm is free-market healthcare, where the patient directly pays the doctor.

And yet, even that delivers a cost structure that is infinitely preferable to our circus over here.

I personally favour socialised medicine. The point is that whichever extreme you go to, it's going to be better than the morbidly obese, hyperinflated, worst-of-all-worlds catastrophe in the US.

Re: The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure

#110
post #86
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 reason we wouldn't do things like that today: 112-154 people died during construction (number depends on if you believe that carbon monoxide poisioning during construction was purposely mis-diagnosed in order for the company to skip on paying death benefits).

You say that as though dams can't be built without killing people. They aren't gifts bestowed by the gods upon the completion of sufficient human sacrifice. Deaths and injuries are minimal with construction equipment and safety techniques.

The Hoover Dam was build for about $800 million inflation adjusted. I'm 100% certain that you couldn't build that structure today for that much without killing people.
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