Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

law.cornell.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 319 posts

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#201

Post by touchofevil »

adrianmonk wrote: post #186
touchofevil wrote: post #48

If you want to learn about a really interesting aspect of the "first sale doctrine" and how it applies to software, you should have a look at "Vernor vs Autodesk" in the USA and compare it to "Oracle vs UsedSoft" in the EU. Basically, in the USA the courts determined that if a company sells you software, but in their terms & conditions claim that they are merely granting you a license, then you can't resell the softw…

Most mobile apps have moved to a model with in-app purchases. I wonder if this rule applies there. If a game is free, but I spend $1.99 on 500 gold coins (in-game currency), does the law require that I be able to sell the gold coins? What about if I use them to buy virtual non-consumable items (like permanent character upgrades)? I assume the law wouldn't apply to consumable items (like spending 50 gold coins to spee…

I'm also curious about reselling in-app purchases. The Oracle vs UsedSoft ruling only applied to "software" as I recall. I think if you had paid for in-app purchases to unlock premium features of a product there could be a case to made that you should be able to resell that free app with the features you paid to unlock.

As far as reselling unused in-game currency like gold coins that speed up construction of a building, I personally think it would be cool to see a secondary market pop up. However, I don't know if that would be covered by UsedSoft v Oracle.

The big question is whether individual Steam games should be able to be resold in the EU due to Oracle vs UsedSoft. If so, that's a potential multi-billion dollar secondary market that doesn't exist yet.

Edit: Sidenote, I actually started an auction site based on the idea of reselling Steam games (and ios games) several years ago based on the UsedSoft v Oracle ruling but due to these companies not allowing users to transfer licenses between each other, my startup was not workable.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#202

Post by azernik »

algesten wrote: post #197
touchofevil wrote: post #48

If you want to learn about a really interesting aspect of the "first sale doctrine" and how it applies to software, you should have a look at "Vernor vs Autodesk" in the USA and compare it to "Oracle vs UsedSoft" in the EU. Basically, in the USA the courts determined that if a company sells you software, but in their terms & conditions claim that they are merely granting you a license, then you can't resell the softw…

I do hope EU gets on top of Apple/Google/Netflix/HBO/etc soon. It's supposed to be One Market, yet these all impose territory restrictions where content in Spain is not necessarily available in France and vice versa.

They're working on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Single_Market

Note that the issue is rulemaking, not enforcement. The Single Market is a statement of principle, not a legally-applicable regulation, and needs specific rules to be made to put it into effect in different markets.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#203

Post by bdhess »

azernik wrote: post #202
algesten wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do hope EU gets on top of Apple/Google/Netflix/HBO/etc soon. It's supposed to be One Market, yet these all impose territory restrictions where content in Spain is not necessarily available in France and vice versa.

They're working on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Single_Market Note that the issue is rulemaking, not enforcement. The Single Market is a statement of principle, not a legally-applicable regulation, and needs specific rules to be made to put it into effect in different markets.

I would also add that the original intent was to remove government-imposed barriers to trade between the members (elimination of duties, regulation, etc). Whereas the unavailability of certain content based on location is almost certainly the result of a contractual arrangement between content makers and distributors rather than a government-imposed limit.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#204

Post by spacemanmatt »

Steko wrote: post #195

Florian Mueller (yes, [1]) says this is very bad news for Qualcomm. He quotes Roberts' decision: "The problem with the Federal Circuit's logic is that the exhaustion doctrine is not a presumption about the authority that comes along with a sale; it is a limit on the scope of the patentee's rights. The Patent Act gives patentees a limited exclusionary power, and exhaustion extinguishes that power. A purchaser has the…

Once FM lost my trust (during the Oracle-Google suit reporting) it's just hard to take him at face value again.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#205

Post by [deleted] »

Steko wrote: post #195

Florian Mueller (yes, [1]) says this is very bad news for Qualcomm. He quotes Roberts' decision: "The problem with the Federal Circuit's logic is that the exhaustion doctrine is not a presumption about the authority that comes along with a sale; it is a limit on the scope of the patentee's rights. The Patent Act gives patentees a limited exclusionary power, and exhaustion extinguishes that power. A purchaser has the…

[deleted]

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#206

Post by azernik »

bdhess wrote: post #203
azernik wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're working on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Single_Market Note that the issue is rulemaking, not enforcement. The Single Market is a statement of principle, not a legally-applicable regulation, and needs specific rules to be made to put it into effect in different markets.

I would also add that the original intent was to remove government-imposed barriers to trade between the members (elimination of duties, regulation, etc). Whereas the unavailability of certain content based on location is almost certainly the result of a contractual arrangement between content makers and distributors rather than a government-imposed limit.

The scope of the Single Market is broader than that - it includes standardization of weights and measures, standardization of product names, etc. - rules that apply to private companies, and are meant to break down extra-legal obstacles to trade.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#207

Post by Steko »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #204
Steko wrote: post #195

Florian Mueller (yes, [1]) says this is very bad news for Qualcomm. He quotes Roberts' decision: "The problem with the Federal Circuit's logic is that the exhaustion doctrine is not a presumption about the authority that comes along with a sale; it is a limit on the scope of the patentee's rights. The Patent Act gives patentees a limited exclusionary power, and exhaustion extinguishes that power. A purchaser has the…

Once FM lost my trust (during the Oracle-Google suit reporting) it's just hard to take him at face value again.

Perhaps, maybe his tune changes according to which side is paying him. Most of the quotes above are not reliant on his analysis though and the relevance of today's decision to Qualcomm's practices seems pretty clear.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#208

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jmcdiesel wrote: post #190
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I take my car in for an oil change, the shop doesn't take ownership for an hour...

They also don't sell your car to another person... Its not quite analogous

True. A "refill while you wait" service would be analogous, however.

And one could make an argument that, since printer cartridges are more fungible, the difference matters for cars but not for printer cartridges. IANAL, so I don't know if it makes any legal difference.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#209

Post by pfisch »

algesten wrote: post #197
touchofevil wrote: post #48

If you want to learn about a really interesting aspect of the "first sale doctrine" and how it applies to software, you should have a look at "Vernor vs Autodesk" in the USA and compare it to "Oracle vs UsedSoft" in the EU. Basically, in the USA the courts determined that if a company sells you software, but in their terms & conditions claim that they are merely granting you a license, then you can't resell the softw…

I do hope EU gets on top of Apple/Google/Netflix/HBO/etc soon. It's supposed to be One Market, yet these all impose territory restrictions where content in Spain is not necessarily available in France and vice versa.

Don't you think the most likely outcome of this is the far majority of older media titles will just no longer be available in the EU indefinitely?

It will be unreasonably difficult and just not worth it to track down and negotiate with all the various the owners for each territory for most older titles.

Re: SCOTUS: Patent Rights Over a Printer Cartridge Are Exhausted When It Is Sold

#210

Post by derefr »

touchofevil wrote: post #48

If you want to learn about a really interesting aspect of the "first sale doctrine" and how it applies to software, you should have a look at "Vernor vs Autodesk" in the USA and compare it to "Oracle vs UsedSoft" in the EU. Basically, in the USA the courts determined that if a company sells you software, but in their terms & conditions claim that they are merely granting you a license, then you can't resell the softw…

What does the European ruling imply for services like Steam, that will sell you a game license-key, but in a way where that key is bound to your particular Steam account? Does it force such keys to be transferrable in Europe? Or force the licensing server to have a "transfer of ownership" API such that it will revoke one key and generate another for the new owner?
Post reply on HN