Why do so few people major in computer science? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#501

Post by alistairSH » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #430

alistairSH wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poppycock. I studied CS at UVA in the late-90s and had no previous programming experience. I was an experienced computer user, which wasn't a given in the 90s, but I hadn't done any programming. There wasn't anything in the curriculum that required previous experience. Linux wasn't required for entry-level courses. At the time, they were taught using C++ and a Borland IDE on Windows. Similarly, source control wasn't…

FWIW I started my CS degree in 2001. My first CS class assumed I knew how to navigate a *nix system (I forget which one). I was also expected to already know at least one programming or scripting language of my choice that could be used on the school's servers. That included but was not necessarily limited to: Perl, Java, C/C++. Oh, and I also needed to know Matlab.

I'd say that's a massive flaw in the curriculum. They've effectively written off the overwhelming majority of new college students. Outside of a high-school level CS course, where would one even encounter a *nix system (yes, I'm ignoring the dedicated geeks who spin up their own system for fun)?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#502

Post by theorique » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

sah2ed wrote: post #497

ashark wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's even the programming that's the problem. There's a ton of Stupid Computer Shit we all know, mostly from messing around on our own time, that makes programming or doing anything else with computers much easier. A set of skills for navigating and troubleshooting issues, and a hard-earned intuition for where and how to look for answers. My CS program was really easy and I still don't know how people w…

> There's a ton of Stupid Computer Shit we all know, mostly from messing around on our own time, that makes programming or doing anything else with computers much easier. Thanks for clearly articulating this in 6 words: "Stupid Computer Shit we all know". This is something many people aren't willing to acknowledge (aka tribal knowledge gained from lots of trial and error). It perfectly summarizes what pg tried to com…

Exactly right. The unstated but important knowledge of Stupid Computer Shit We All Know was spun by the media as "Evil Bigot Paul Graham Says That Only Suburban White Kids Who Have Used Computers Since Age 6 Can Ever Be Successful Tech Entrepreneurs". Which was not at all what he was saying but ... media gonna media.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#503

Post by fitchjo » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:31 PM UTC

I know not exactly what the author is discussing in his post, but as someone that did two years in CS before switching (to accountancy), one of the main reasons I switched was the stark contrast in interest in the field between myself and (seemingly) everyone else. In hindsight, I think I would have made a good project manager (instead of a developer), but that path was not really communicated to me in a way that resonated with me. So I just saw a bunch of people with a much greater zeal for coding than I had and decided I should try something different. Maybe in another life...

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#504

Post by le-mark » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

nathan_f77 wrote: post #433

dagw wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if you have been playing around with environment variables in your OS since you where 8 years old the problem becomes a lot easier to troubleshoot, compared to someone who has never heard of environment variables.

Even after decades of experience, this stuff can still be extremely frustrating. I remember my first experience trying out Go, fighting with the GOPATH and GOROOT variables until I could figure out how to get things installed properly.

I recently had this experience as well, it was a good reminder about the fundamental obstacles. Although after years, we're much better equipped to interpret error messages and search for answers than a novice. Also, google now vs pre-google. Answers are so easy to find now, it boggles the mind.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#505

Post by alistairSH » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #316

alistairSH wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poppycock. I studied CS at UVA in the late-90s and had no previous programming experience. I was an experienced computer user, which wasn't a given in the 90s, but I hadn't done any programming. There wasn't anything in the curriculum that required previous experience. Linux wasn't required for entry-level courses. At the time, they were taught using C++ and a Borland IDE on Windows. Similarly, source control wasn't…

+1 I also started a CS program in '95, with practically no previous programming experience. (10 PRINT "HENRIK IS THE BEST", 20 GOTO 10 doesn't count) One thing our university did though was that the introduction course was in Scheme, which evened the playing field immensely, because most of the kids who could program were self-taught in Pascal or C, and where pretty stumped when confronted with a functional programmi…

A bunch dropped out because the programme was an engineering programme, and they failed the math parts

There are solutions to this problem as well.

JMU and GMU (high quality, but not top-tier, state schools) both offer pure CS degrees, but also a spectrum of multidisciplinary programs in "IT". One of my current summer interns is wrapping up a degree in info security, with a heavy dose of programming. The other intern is a straight-up CS major. Both appear to have the programming chops to join the workforce as typical application developers.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#506

Post by theorique » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:34 PM UTC

tsukikage wrote: post #428

YZF wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have thought about beer money. But I was such an introverted geek. I do remember watching other people trying to figure out how to use a mouse or the most basic stuff. I've already studied algorithms and data structures and had a paying programming job. Most of the CS work seemed trivial but I did learn some math. The math did get hard so the degree was definitely not a breeze. Even with CS there were areas…

If anything, it's a disadvantage IME: the implicit lessons of the iDevice are that the world is made of non-user-serviceable black boxes that cannot be recombined to make anything substantially different than what you started with, and if one does ever manage to peek under the hood (and why would one do that, any more than they do with their fridge or their TV?) one sees only immutable non-deconstructible complexity.…

Exactly. And the UI of a phone has become increasingly elementary and unsophisticated compared to even a keyboard and mouse. Being an end user of mobile games or Snapchat or Tinder (swipe-swipe-tap-swipe) simply doesn't prepare you for Emacs or vim.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#507

Post by daxorid » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

kxyvr wrote: post #82

djsumdog wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been pretty curious about this as well. Why aren't there more women on oil rigs? We try to add diversity, but it feels so manufactured. Society has evolved the games and roles we play. It will evolve further down the line as well. What is considered acceptable for men, women, westerners, easterners, low-income, high-income will all be noticeably different in 100 years. Culture adjusts with time, and we see that…

Off and on, I do contract work for oil companies and I can say with some certainty that it's a pretty hostile environment toward women. Let me give some examples to see if I can build a picture. On the technology end of things, I used to go to the conference SEG, which a lot of deals for technology are made on the side. I've not been for the last 4-5 years, but they used to be really aggressive about their use of boo…

Alternative hypothesis, with regard to roughnecking, provided by Occam's Razor and biology:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/alm...

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#508

Post by le-mark » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

usmeteora wrote: post #489

PretzelFisch wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Cousin smart kid had to come over at midnight because he had his first java assignment outside the ide. Couldn't compile because class path was not defined right on windows. Things like that scare people or pop their confidence.

to be fair, I've been coding for 8 years and have never coded in a Windows operating system outside of an IDE, and in general I don't use either, and have not since Computer Science 1. For a job, I had to get python working on Windows, and it took me a few days to get it in stalled correctly on Windows. Even after years of coding experience. The issue with Windows is it is designed to explicitly hide the backend func…

Lots of good insight here, you ought to cut n paste this into medium to get it out there. I particularly find your perspective of academic high achievers, who have already over come many obstacles, to still find CS as an impenetrable discipline.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#509

Post by deathanatos » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #480

deathanatos wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree; I routinely need to educate co-workers on how things like B-Trees works, what a sum type is and why it is useful, what the SRP means (and why it is useful), why testing matters, why abstraction matters, or even things like how to secure production servers. To take the B-tree example: I've run across a number of people who I feel are more apt to blame "the database" for being slow; "it can't handle…

> I have to disagree; I routinely need to educate co-workers on how things like B-Trees works, what a sum type is and why it is useful, what the SRP means (and why it is useful), why testing matters, why abstraction matters, or even things like how to secure production servers. Given this, why would someone want to get a CS degree, usually at a significant cost, when their coworkers will happily cover the same conten…

That's an interesting — and mildly dystopian, to me — thought. I would argue that the cost of having not understood these things is taking quite a toll in the form of tech debt, however. While it is certainly true that I, and others passionate about the field, can potentially educate (though it's debatable how good I am at that), I find I'm usually doing that after-the-fact: I can't know that someone lacks knowledge until they've someone demonstrated that, typically in the form of tech debt, at which point it is much more expensive to course correct.

(In the BTree example, I find people often think they understand how BTrees work, so they're not going to raise questions, since they don't know what they don't know.)

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#510

Post by BearGoesChirp » Tue, May 30, 2017, 2:46 PM UTC

kutkloon7 wrote: post #79

I majored in computer science, and I don't feel like I've learned anything. Every time there was an opportunity to learn something cool (mathematical theory behind cryptography, assembly language, details of a processor, the cache, or a communication protocol) or useful, it was glanced over as 'technical details'. Instead, I was introduced to many, many small topics (programming, graphics, databases, algorithms, user…

>details of a processor

To give a counter view, at the university I attended we went deep into the processor, effectively building a simple model from NAND gates all the way up to an optimized CPU pipeline. The class had one of the most interesting grade curves I've every seen, with no B's, and very few C's. Most grades were either A's or D's.