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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#31

Post by sidlls »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

> Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better,

Yes, that's quite likely. Diversity is important in this field, as in any other, for a number of reasons. The two most important are that is the brings diversity of thought, which should always be welcome in a supposedly fact-based intellectual field, and that it is a signal that we as a society value ourselves and our peers well enough to not treat anybody as second class citizens.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#32

Post by mdc2161 »

Personal anecdote: I didn't major in it because I had no idea I would enjoy it.

I was fortunate that my engineering program had two semesters of Java. We spent more time hand drawing logic gates than coding in the intro course and so it wasn't until the second (data structures) that I realized it was something I wanted to pursue. It was too late for me to change majors at that point, but not too late to take internships and then a job as a programmer.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#33

Post by twblalock »

xxSparkleSxx wrote: post #12

I think the market is just way over saturated. Hiring practices for developers point to just that. I mentioned in a different thread how simole it is for my travel-nurse of a sister to get a new job (her stints around the Bay Area paid ~100k and she only has 2 years of experience). Developers jump through hoop after hoop for employment, this wouldn't happen if they were in demand like a nurse. The market is just resp…

I don't know what market you're in, but it's definitely hard to find good people in Silicon Valley. Most of the time my company finds one, they have multiple offers.

It's also difficult to believe in an oversaturation of developers when their salaries are at record highs -- that only happens when demand increases relative to supply. There is no union, and minimum wage is nowhere near what developers are paid, so supply and demand is the only explanation for the increase in developer salaries over the past few years. In an oversaturated market, salaries would decrease, not increase.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#34

Post by kxyvr »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

This is factually incorrect. Many years ago, I was involved in underrepresented minority outreach programs at a variety of institutions. Computer science was one of many fields, which we focused. Though, to be clear, the programs that I was involved in were all STEM centered. Also, to be clear, the word underrepresented is important here. Asians are a racial minority in the United States, but not underrepresented in STEM fields, so they do not receive the same kind of focus. Alternatively, women are not underrepresented in all STEM fields, so the attention per field varies. As a corollary to this, good programs tend to look at the number of underrepresented people at the undergraudate, graduate, and faculty levels and tend to make different decisions depending on where the need is. Generally, representation is not uniform across each of those categories.

Now, this is not to contend whether these programs are good or bad. I have my own opinions. However, I will strongly say that the contention that computer science is unique in this regard is factually incorrect. Programs exist across a broad selection of fields.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#35

Post by olewhalehunter »

david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

>You either have it or you don't.

This kind of ignorance brings up the major social issue of technology, something similar to the "Smug Lisp Weenie" issue.

Many young people are idealistic and want to get into a field that will change the world for the better, and going into a field where the status quo for success is how well you can implement math for a faceless entity is not very appealing for many folks, regardless of their ability to do so.

You might be able to memorize hundreds of kernel functions or visualize abstract data types, but is what you're building actually solving the problems of your community or your society? Does your job tickle your brain enough that you don't care if you're building auto emission cheats? Is this kind of thinking truly "intelligence" when the ocean is acidifying and urban lifestyles are shortening our telomeres?

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#36

Post by [deleted] »

simonsarris wrote: post #11

Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it's 4/5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000's is somewhat explainable as an anomaly. I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat. You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/report…

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#37

Post by david-cako »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

This is an argument that make on a regular basis and it never seems to work for the people on the other side of the argument. There's always some excuse that boils down to:

A, I only care about the demographics when it's convenient (i.e., the career is prestigious)

or B, "yeah well I support men in nursing and women in construction too!", despite there not being a similar effort in the known universe to force demographics in these fields.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#38

Post by djsumdog »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

I've been pretty curious about this as well. Why aren't there more women on oil rigs?

We try to add diversity, but it feels so manufactured. Society has evolved the games and roles we play. It will evolve further down the line as well. What is considered acceptable for men, women, westerners, easterners, low-income, high-income will all be noticeably different in 100 years.

Culture adjusts with time, and we see that in our current society, women often takes roles they feel more fulfilled with rather than those which might earn them the most money.

I guess you could make the argument that they're falling into traditional family roles with men being the bread winners, but I've seen many single women on their own peruse the same ends.

Maybe we should all find ways to do what we love instead of being like the guy in the Futurama poster with "You gotta do what you gotta do."

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#39

Post by NotQuantum »

romanovcode wrote: post #16
david-cako wrote: post #14

A better question is "why do we care". Software is about the only career I can think of where there are movements created to inject social status into it so that people get into it who are only interested so long as it comes with social status/trendiness. The major also doesn't fix the thought process. You either have it or you don't.

I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it. Maybe I just live in developer bubble and don't know any better, but I've never seen a movement like "Girls do Plumbing!", "Black girls construction bootcamp" or "Mining for equality!".

Counter point: You can reason that women wouldn't go into other fields like plumbing, or construction because those are also male dominated. The biggest distinction is that Computer Science can be a path climb the socioeconomic ladder.

> I think it is also the only career which people try to inject diversity just for the sake of it.

Well when you think about the reach of software in the modern world, it can influence anyone. Whereas diversity in plumbing might not be important, having different points of view on a programming team can mean the difference between having your product take off, or fail.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#40

Post by ellius »

mdc2161 wrote: post #32

Personal anecdote: I didn't major in it because I had no idea I would enjoy it. I was fortunate that my engineering program had two semesters of Java. We spent more time hand drawing logic gates than coding in the intro course and so it wasn't until the second (data structures) that I realized it was something I wanted to pursue. It was too late for me to change majors at that point, but not too late to take internsh…

Same here. I wish I had the degree, but I don't regret the ones I did get (history and economics). I get to use code in a job I enjoy and thrive in, which gives me a leg up on the competition. It has made it difficult to break into fields I now think would be interesting (esp. security or systems admin), which I think has been the only downside. I can learn a lot of the interesting stuff on my own time and apply it when appropriate for my normal job.
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